WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.708 --> 00:00:03.041
CORE ISSUES TRUST

2
00:00:03.125 --> 00:00:07.250
CHALLENGING GENDER CONFUSION,
UPHOLDING SCIENCE AND CONSCIENCE

3
00:00:09.875 --> 00:00:15.875
ICON TOWERS MEDIA

4
00:00:19.291 --> 00:00:20.750
VOICES

5
00:00:20.833 --> 00:00:25.083
EXPERTS, EVIDENCE AND IDEOLOGY
VOICES OF THE SILENCED

6
00:00:25.166 --> 00:00:29.208
I have made up my mind, very strongly.

7
00:00:29.291 --> 00:00:33.291
Being in the Netherlands,

8
00:00:33.375 --> 00:00:35.916
it sometimes makes me so angry

9
00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:41.625
to see how our society has denied people

10
00:00:41.708 --> 00:00:43.916
the journey that I have been taking,

11
00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:46.208
and which gives me so much fulfilment.

12
00:00:46.291 --> 00:00:48.750
To see people being told
it is not possible

13
00:00:48.833 --> 00:00:50.583
makes me very angry.

14
00:00:50.666 --> 00:00:54.166
If I was satisfied, and happy,

15
00:00:54.250 --> 00:00:57.041
and had a sense of peace,

16
00:00:57.125 --> 00:00:59.125
then I wouldn’t be on this journey.

17
00:00:59.208 --> 00:01:02.625
I grew up a lonely child,

18
00:01:02.708 --> 00:01:06.791
and just didn’t really have
any connection with my parents at all

19
00:01:06.875 --> 00:01:09.708
Family is disintegrating
at a rapid rate.

20
00:01:09.791 --> 00:01:12.958
There’s no communication there.

21
00:01:13.041 --> 00:01:15.583
It seems, from some definitions,

22
00:01:15.666 --> 00:01:19.083
that anyone who shares a fridge
is family,

23
00:01:19.166 --> 00:01:21.666
but that doesn’t make
for good communication.

24
00:01:21.750 --> 00:01:26.291
One of the main issues
is therapy,

25
00:01:26.375 --> 00:01:31.375
to help people who suffer from same-sex
attraction they don’t wish to have.

26
00:01:31.458 --> 00:01:33.500
They would like to be rid of it.

27
00:01:33.583 --> 00:01:37.416
They go a therapist,
and they are refused,

28
00:01:37.500 --> 00:01:41.958
because that therapist risks being
removed by their professional body.

29
00:01:42.041 --> 00:01:46.166
There is very strong pressure
on academics and journalists,

30
00:01:46.250 --> 00:01:50.583
not to explore sexual politics
in a critical way,

31
00:01:50.666 --> 00:01:53.458
or even in a detached
or disinterested way.

32
00:01:53.541 --> 00:01:55.500
It is career suicide.

33
00:01:55.583 --> 00:02:00.625
I use the term “sexual politics” to
describe the rise of feminist politics

34
00:02:00.708 --> 00:02:03.583
and, more recently,
homosexualist politics.

35
00:02:03.666 --> 00:02:07.375
It's very striking that
in the last 40 years or so,

36
00:02:07.458 --> 00:02:12.791
a topic ignored by the Western world
has been this rise of sexual politics.

37
00:02:12.875 --> 00:02:16.458
In Germany, it's very difficult
to talk openly about our work.

38
00:02:16.541 --> 00:02:22.208
We receive fewer and fewer invitations
to official or public events,

39
00:02:22.291 --> 00:02:26.708
because the organisers fear
there may be a big media campaign

40
00:02:26.791 --> 00:02:29.791
against their event.

41
00:02:29.875 --> 00:02:32.916
This has often happened in the past.

42
00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:36.708
There have been protests,
politicians who protests,

43
00:02:36.791 --> 00:02:40.583
homosexual groups who protests.

44
00:02:40.666 --> 00:02:41.958
Many organisers,

45
00:02:42.041 --> 00:02:46.583
regardless of whether it's scientific
conferences or Christian events,

46
00:02:46.666 --> 00:02:52.250
don't want to be portrayed
in the media

47
00:02:52.333 --> 00:02:55.458
as a 'gay cure' conference.

48
00:02:55.541 --> 00:03:02.333
They want people to focus
on their good work in the public sphere,

49
00:03:02.416 --> 00:03:05.916
and for that reason
we're not invited any more.

50
00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:08.875
We often experience a lot of hostility:

51
00:03:08.958 --> 00:03:14.875
hate mail, threats,
demonstrations against us and so on.

52
00:03:14.958 --> 00:03:17.958
Another UN committee,

53
00:03:18.041 --> 00:03:24.458
which had input from a lot of American
gay activist organisations,

54
00:03:24.541 --> 00:03:28.041
issued a new statement.

55
00:03:28.125 --> 00:03:35.083
This said that men who have sex with men
have essential rights.

56
00:03:35.166 --> 00:03:41.583
They included 10 year old boys as men
who have sex with men.

57
00:03:41.666 --> 00:03:43.458
So through the UN,

58
00:03:43.541 --> 00:03:47.291
the world is beginning
its slow march towards paedophilia.

59
00:03:47.375 --> 00:03:49.583
My question is to America and the world,

60
00:03:49.666 --> 00:03:55.625
are we going to let this thing
occur in the modern age?

61
00:03:57.708 --> 00:04:00.375
Ancient Rome comes to mind.

62
00:04:00.458 --> 00:04:07.166
Are we really going to let pederasty
exist in the world today?

63
00:04:07.250 --> 00:04:11.375
That's where some of our professional
committees and organisations

64
00:04:11.458 --> 00:04:14.416
are trying to make us move towards.

65
00:04:14.500 --> 00:04:20.916
I think modern people

66
00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:26.875
underestimate the diversity
of sexual life in ancient times.

67
00:04:26.958 --> 00:04:32.041
There were so many linguistic concepts
for sexual activity

68
00:04:32.125 --> 00:04:35.125
in both Greek and Latin.

69
00:04:35.208 --> 00:04:41.916
Big cities like Corinth and Rome

70
00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.333
had much in common with modern cities.

71
00:04:44.416 --> 00:04:48.583
Understanding the rise
of sexual politics in Western Culture,

72
00:04:48.666 --> 00:04:50.708
is helped by tracing ideas

73
00:04:50.791 --> 00:04:56.541
about ancient Roman sexuality.

74
00:04:56.625 --> 00:04:58.250
My name is Mike Davidson.

75
00:04:58.333 --> 00:05:03.250
I’m exploring the towns
at the foot of Mount Vesuvius in Italy.

76
00:05:03.333 --> 00:05:07.333
They were destroyed when
Vesuvius erupted in 1st Century AD.

77
00:05:14.416 --> 00:05:19.083
When Vesuvius
erupted in 79 AD,

78
00:05:19.166 --> 00:05:23.333
Pliny the Younger
described the great eruption

79
00:05:23.416 --> 00:05:25.958
as being like
an umbrella pine.

80
00:05:26.041 --> 00:05:30.208
But after the eruption,
when the dust had settled,

81
00:05:30.291 --> 00:05:33.208
what was in the mind of the ancients

82
00:05:33.291 --> 00:05:36.291
as life began to return to normal

83
00:05:36.375 --> 00:05:39.833
and the darkened sky
once again became bright?

84
00:05:39.916 --> 00:05:45.416
The earliest account we have
of the eruption comes from a Jewish man.

85
00:05:45.500 --> 00:05:49.458
It is recorded in the fourth book
of the Sibylline Oracles.

86
00:05:49.541 --> 00:05:51.625
He links this event

87
00:05:51.708 --> 00:05:56.791
to the destruction of Jerusalem
in AD 70, nine years earlier

88
00:05:56.875 --> 00:06:00.041
and to the sacking
of the Temple of God.

89
00:06:00.125 --> 00:06:05.958
Jewish and Christian believers
made a link between this event,

90
00:06:06.041 --> 00:06:10.250
and what had been such a powerful
event in their own histories,

91
00:06:10.333 --> 00:06:12.333
nine years earlier.

92
00:06:12.416 --> 00:06:16.208
I think these issues have relevance
for the Church of Christ.

93
00:06:16.291 --> 00:06:18.208
A few hundred years ago,

94
00:06:18.291 --> 00:06:21.958
the famous astronomer Galileo
argued with the church.

95
00:06:22.041 --> 00:06:26.125
The church said that the sun
revolved around the earth,

96
00:06:26.208 --> 00:06:28.916
and Galileo said,
‘No, it’s the other way round’.

97
00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:33.041
People think it's the same thing again
with the church on the defensive,

98
00:06:33.125 --> 00:06:36.166
but it's actually role reversal.

99
00:06:36.250 --> 00:06:39.166
Now the scientific establishment
is on the defensive.

100
00:06:39.250 --> 00:06:43.916
We are raising the evidence,
and they are backing off with ideology.

101
00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:47.500
It is important for the church
to realise this,

102
00:06:47.583 --> 00:06:51.708
to take courage,
to stand up, to inform itself,

103
00:06:51.791 --> 00:06:56.583
and to fight to maintain
our duty of Judeo-Christian values.

104
00:06:56.666 --> 00:07:00.000
These issues
aren't just for church people.

105
00:07:00.083 --> 00:07:05.958
Anyone can be touched by
questions of same sex attraction,

106
00:07:06.041 --> 00:07:10.416
all of us are the same
in that regard.

107
00:07:10.500 --> 00:07:14.458
Everybody stands to benefit
from good science being done.

108
00:07:14.541 --> 00:07:18.208
It is important
that we should take a stand

109
00:07:18.291 --> 00:07:21.791
and ensure that science
is properly carried out.

110
00:07:21.875 --> 00:07:28.083
The Romans persecuted the Christians
for more than 300 years.

111
00:07:28.166 --> 00:07:34.083
The Roman Empire was
one of the few civilisations in history

112
00:07:34.166 --> 00:07:38.000
that used cruelty for pleasure.

113
00:07:38.083 --> 00:07:44.541
Many Christians met their deaths
in the arena.

114
00:07:44.625 --> 00:07:49.208
They were not just
executed for crimes,

115
00:07:49.291 --> 00:07:54.583
but for the pleasure of the circus,
of the elite, and the Plebeians.

116
00:07:57.791 --> 00:08:01.125
Christianity changed Europe completely.

117
00:08:01.208 --> 00:08:06.041
What we see now is the result
of the Christian faith.

118
00:08:06.125 --> 00:08:11.541
Even Roman law which became important
later on in the history of Europe,

119
00:08:11.625 --> 00:08:17.541
was actually Christianised Roman law,
of Justinian and Theodosius.

120
00:08:17.625 --> 00:08:21.708
It was not the pagan Roman law
under which the Christians suffered.

121
00:08:21.791 --> 00:08:25.916
So our view of human rights,

122
00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.250
and the value of the human person,

123
00:08:28.333 --> 00:08:32.500
all of this we owe to the arrival
of Christianity.

124
00:08:32.583 --> 00:08:34.500
When I see the Colosseum,

125
00:08:34.583 --> 00:08:40.708
I connect it to the Jewish people
who helped to build it,

126
00:08:40.791 --> 00:08:42.875
whose Temple had been destroyed

127
00:08:42.958 --> 00:08:47.875
after the long Roman occupation under
Emperor Vespasian.

128
00:08:47.958 --> 00:08:54.458
One of the most moving stories
of those who have been silenced,

129
00:08:54.541 --> 00:08:58.541
is the account of destroying
the Temple,

130
00:08:58.625 --> 00:09:01.583
and then bringing to Rome
the plundered goods,

131
00:09:01.666 --> 00:09:03.791
that were used to build the Colosseum.

132
00:09:03.875 --> 00:09:06.250
Titus' Arch is in front of me.

133
00:09:06.333 --> 00:09:12.750
Through this, Titus marched
with the slaves from Jerusalem,

134
00:09:12.833 --> 00:09:18.333
marking his triumph,
and his great victory in Jerusalem.

135
00:09:18.416 --> 00:09:22.875
Josephus tells us that 97,000 slaves

136
00:09:22.958 --> 00:09:28.500
were taken from Jerusalem
at the time of the ending of the Temple.

137
00:09:28.583 --> 00:09:33.000
He also records
that 1,100,000 people perished,

138
00:09:33.083 --> 00:09:38.541
when Titus destroyed the Temple
and Jerusalem.

139
00:09:38.625 --> 00:09:42.666
We cannot forget when we look
at the Colosseum,

140
00:09:42.750 --> 00:09:46.916
how this has come about
and why it happened in the way it has.

141
00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:48.625
To me,

142
00:09:48.708 --> 00:09:52.250
this is a story and dimension
of this building

143
00:09:52.333 --> 00:09:55.541
that has been obscured and lost.

144
00:09:55.625 --> 00:09:57.958
I became a Christian
when I was about 18.

145
00:09:58.041 --> 00:10:00.541
My mother was Jewish.

146
00:10:00.625 --> 00:10:03.625
My father was Christian.

147
00:10:03.708 --> 00:10:07.625
At first, these two worlds
were separate.

148
00:10:07.708 --> 00:10:09.666
As I grew as a Christian,

149
00:10:09.750 --> 00:10:13.708
I realised that Christianity

150
00:10:13.791 --> 00:10:17.916
was the fulfilment of Judaism.

151
00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:21.750
What the Jewish prophets spoke about,
in the Old Testament,

152
00:10:21.833 --> 00:10:23.708
was actually fulfilled by Jesus.

153
00:10:23.791 --> 00:10:28.125
All the apostles were Jews.

154
00:10:28.208 --> 00:10:32.500
So for me, this brought together
these two parts of my life,

155
00:10:32.583 --> 00:10:34.625
and made them into one.

156
00:10:34.708 --> 00:10:40.750
Through maturing and growing,
I saw this was an amazing fulfilment.

157
00:10:40.833 --> 00:10:45.208
I still have a lot of family in Israel.

158
00:10:45.291 --> 00:10:46.750
My mum came from Israel.

159
00:10:46.833 --> 00:10:52.208
I can share so much about Jesus,

160
00:10:52.291 --> 00:10:55.083
from the Old Testament.

161
00:10:55.166 --> 00:10:57.416
Jesus is very plain
in the Old Testament,

162
00:10:57.500 --> 00:10:59.333
not just in the New Testament.

163
00:10:59.416 --> 00:11:03.458
I think that the church
can miss out tremendously

164
00:11:03.541 --> 00:11:06.208
when forgetting about its Jewish roots.

165
00:11:06.291 --> 00:11:09.500
The Jewish people turned out
to be counter cultural.

166
00:11:09.583 --> 00:11:14.000
In Europe today, the church
has to think about that.

167
00:11:14.083 --> 00:11:19.375
How to relate positively
to culture where it can do so.

168
00:11:19.458 --> 00:11:22.875
But where it can’t,

169
00:11:22.958 --> 00:11:26.833
it must think
how to resist capitulation to culture,

170
00:11:26.916 --> 00:11:29.166
which can be very strongly demanded.

171
00:11:29.250 --> 00:11:35.583
The Arch of Titus is important
because of its two inscribed panels.

172
00:11:35.666 --> 00:11:40.750
The most famous panel behind me

173
00:11:40.833 --> 00:11:44.750
marks the start of the procession
led by Titus.

174
00:11:44.833 --> 00:11:47.791
It shows those
who were in the procession,

175
00:11:47.875 --> 00:11:51.500
carrying the booty that was taken
from the Temple:

176
00:11:51.583 --> 00:11:55.083
The Table of Showbread;
the silver trumpets;

177
00:11:55.166 --> 00:11:58.166
and more importantly, the Menorah,

178
00:11:58.250 --> 00:12:01.291
reflecting the light
and the glory of Israel.

179
00:12:01.375 --> 00:12:05.875
One of the most poignant
and sad stories,

180
00:12:05.958 --> 00:12:09.916
is remembering what happened
in 1948.

181
00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:14.916
The Jewish state of Israel was declared.

182
00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:21.166
Jews that had survived
banishment to Auschwitz,

183
00:12:21.250 --> 00:12:25.166
congregated in this area.

184
00:12:25.250 --> 00:12:31.333
The Talmud had taught them never to walk
through or under the Arch of Titus,

185
00:12:31.416 --> 00:12:37.041
because it was a symbol
of the destruction of Jerusalem,

186
00:12:37.125 --> 00:12:39.333
and the plundering of the Temple.

187
00:12:39.416 --> 00:12:41.291
In May 1948,

188
00:12:41.375 --> 00:12:44.916
when Israel was declared a state,

189
00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:48.333
the Jews who were living in Rome
gathered here,

190
00:12:48.416 --> 00:12:53.333
and marched in that direction,
out of the forum.

191
00:12:53.416 --> 00:12:57.208
Reversing all the fortunes
that had come upon them,

192
00:12:57.291 --> 00:13:03.458
when Titus had brought them,
and carried the Menorah into captivity.

193
00:13:03.541 --> 00:13:07.791
One of the most moving things
to talk about,

194
00:13:07.875 --> 00:13:12.791
is the fact that the Menorah became
the symbol of the State of Israel.

195
00:13:12.875 --> 00:13:16.500
This is not an instrument
to bring light in the temple.

196
00:13:16.583 --> 00:13:20.875
It's a statement about the light

197
00:13:20.958 --> 00:13:23.958
that comes from the nation of Israel

198
00:13:24.041 --> 00:13:26.125
to the people of the Earth.

199
00:13:26.208 --> 00:13:28.625
I think it’s a remarkable story.

200
00:13:28.708 --> 00:13:32.791
And again, it is a story
that is in danger of being lost.

201
00:13:41.750 --> 00:13:46.541
I’ve come to Warsaw, to the Organisation
for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

202
00:13:46.625 --> 00:13:53.166
At the Human Dimensions
Implementation Meeting,

203
00:13:53.250 --> 00:13:56.166
57 nations sit round a table,

204
00:13:56.250 --> 00:13:58.458
and examine whether or not

205
00:13:58.541 --> 00:14:02.166
their human rights responsibilities
have been successful,

206
00:14:02.250 --> 00:14:04.916
in terms of their home countries.

207
00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:09.208
I've been thinking about how some
people, particularly people of faith,

208
00:14:09.291 --> 00:14:12.916
are being represented
in Western Europe today.

209
00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:16.458
Why are some people, and some events,

210
00:14:16.541 --> 00:14:22.666
removed from the histories that are
so important in our culture today?

211
00:14:22.750 --> 00:14:25.791
What are the conditions
under which this happens?

212
00:14:25.875 --> 00:14:30.333
This is an important question
for people of faith, I think.

213
00:14:30.416 --> 00:14:33.500
They are being ignored

214
00:14:33.583 --> 00:14:40.041
or represented
in a way that they feel is inauthentic.

215
00:14:42.166 --> 00:14:44.041
Traditionally in Western society,

216
00:14:44.125 --> 00:14:47.666
there have been three main centres
of opposition.

217
00:14:47.750 --> 00:14:51.750
One is journalism,
one is the church,

218
00:14:51.833 --> 00:14:54.291
one is the academic world.

219
00:14:54.375 --> 00:14:59.541
From these three we expect
to hear critics of government policy.

220
00:14:59.625 --> 00:15:04.416
It is very serious,
when they are silent

221
00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:09.375
and refuse to be heard.

222
00:15:09.458 --> 00:15:12.958
That is happening today
as a result of the sexual agenda.

223
00:15:13.041 --> 00:15:17.500
I now pass the floor
to the Core Issues Trust,

224
00:15:17.583 --> 00:15:21.625
to be followed by the
United States of America.

225
00:15:21.708 --> 00:15:23.666
Chairman and members of the OSCE,

226
00:15:23.750 --> 00:15:27.041
thank you for the opportunity
to talk to you today.

227
00:15:27.125 --> 00:15:31.750
My concern is how evidence,
rights, freedoms, and conscience

228
00:15:31.833 --> 00:15:35.125
are trampled through
viewpoint discrimination,

229
00:15:35.208 --> 00:15:39.000
under the UK’s
aggressive secular state.

230
00:15:39.083 --> 00:15:41.541
Our requests are the following:

231
00:15:41.625 --> 00:15:48.291
We request the OSCE to note the rising
intolerance of liberal orthodoxy

232
00:15:48.375 --> 00:15:53.916
among politicians in an increasingly
intolerant UK state.

233
00:15:54.000 --> 00:16:00.875
Secondly the uncensored propagation
of hate speech terms such as ‘bigot’,

234
00:16:00.958 --> 00:16:04.125
to denounce unpopular viewpoints

235
00:16:04.208 --> 00:16:08.291
about therapy for unwanted
same sex attractions.

236
00:16:08.375 --> 00:16:13.375
The UK would like to respond
to the Core Issues Trust.

237
00:16:13.458 --> 00:16:17.125
The UK government is committed
to safeguarding freedom of religion,

238
00:16:17.208 --> 00:16:21.375
free speech, and defending the
valuable role of faith in public life.

239
00:16:21.458 --> 00:16:25.416
We support people's right to conduct
their lives according to their faith.

240
00:16:25.500 --> 00:16:29.416
in so far as this does not unlawfully
interfere with the rights of others.

241
00:16:29.500 --> 00:16:34.000
It is important to strike a fair balance
between religious freedom of expression,

242
00:16:34.083 --> 00:16:36.958
and the rights of
lesbian gay and bisexual people,

243
00:16:37.041 --> 00:16:38.916
not to be discriminated against.

244
00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.958
The UK government believes
the Equality Act of 2010

245
00:16:42.041 --> 00:16:46.416
balances the rights of people
to manifest their religion or belief

246
00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:51.166
and the rights of others not to be
discriminated against or harassed

247
00:16:51.250 --> 00:16:55.500
due to their protected characteristics
such as sexual orientation.

248
00:16:55.583 --> 00:16:59.166
We are confident the balance is correct

249
00:16:59.250 --> 00:17:01.625
and we have no plans to change the law.

250
00:17:01.708 --> 00:17:07.000
I think that there is one agenda
being protected in their response,

251
00:17:07.083 --> 00:17:10.916
the need to accommodate diversities

252
00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:15.083
that don't favour
the new state orthodoxy

253
00:17:15.166 --> 00:17:17.791
which celebrates homosexuality.

254
00:17:17.875 --> 00:17:19.166
This is not being heard.

255
00:17:19.250 --> 00:17:24.250
I spoke to barrister Paul Diamond,
a human rights lawyer from London.

256
00:17:24.333 --> 00:17:28.041
Paul is standing counsel
for the Christian Legal Centre.

257
00:17:28.125 --> 00:17:31.958
I think Christians are being silenced
in the public sphere.

258
00:17:32.041 --> 00:17:37.916
They are being silenced
because Judeo-Christian values work.

259
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:39.833
Christianity works.

260
00:17:39.916 --> 00:17:45.166
In the UK it produced
parliamentary democracy, tolerance,

261
00:17:45.250 --> 00:17:47.541
freedom, and human rights.

262
00:17:47.625 --> 00:17:51.416
These are things that our opponents
claim we didn’t give, and they will.

263
00:17:51.500 --> 00:17:54.916
I think we can see the falseness
of their arguments.

264
00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:59.083
Secularism is also a worldview.

265
00:17:59.166 --> 00:18:05.416
Its presuppositions need to be examined
and sometimes challenged.

266
00:18:05.500 --> 00:18:10.791
If the nation wants
one of these new realities

267
00:18:10.875 --> 00:18:13.333
to be acknowledged,

268
00:18:13.416 --> 00:18:17.833
then it must also acknowledge that
other people may have a different view.

269
00:18:17.916 --> 00:18:24.875
It must accommodate them,
and respect properly formed consciences.

270
00:18:24.958 --> 00:18:27.166
That is very important,

271
00:18:27.250 --> 00:18:32.291
if a free society is going to be
maintained and to flourish.

272
00:18:32.375 --> 00:18:34.791
The idea of reasonable accommodation is

273
00:18:34.875 --> 00:18:39.416
that people’s beliefs must be respected
at the workplace.

274
00:18:39.500 --> 00:18:43.666
Not just for Christians, but for
wide sections of the community.

275
00:18:43.750 --> 00:18:49.125
We need reasonable accommodation
of the manifestation of belief ,

276
00:18:49.208 --> 00:18:53.916
at the workplace,
but also in other areas,

277
00:18:54.000 --> 00:19:00.833
for example, in volunteering,
or in voluntary agency,

278
00:19:00.916 --> 00:19:05.500
that is where reasonable accommodation
needs to be made.

279
00:19:05.583 --> 00:19:12.541
In 2013, I was testifying
in the State Senate of New Jersey.

280
00:19:12.625 --> 00:19:15.541
They were considering a bill

281
00:19:15.625 --> 00:19:20.791
to ban Sexual Orientation
Change Effort therapy for minors.

282
00:19:20.875 --> 00:19:25.041
I testified as I myself
had come out of homosexuality.

283
00:19:25.125 --> 00:19:29.208
I had helped a number of individuals
transition out of homosexuality.

284
00:19:29.291 --> 00:19:32.083
After I testified,

285
00:19:32.166 --> 00:19:38.083
a male to female transgender activist
called Brielle Goldani,

286
00:19:38.166 --> 00:19:44.500
spoke about being sent
to a ‘conversion therapy torture camp’,

287
00:19:44.583 --> 00:19:46.208
called True Directions.

288
00:19:46.291 --> 00:19:51.000
She said that they used electro shock
and electro convulsive therapy;

289
00:19:51.083 --> 00:19:55.500
and different types of aversion therapy.

290
00:19:55.583 --> 00:20:02.583
I interviewed Brielle Goldani

291
00:20:02.666 --> 00:20:06.375
by phone for about an hour,
and got the details.

292
00:20:06.458 --> 00:20:10.375
If this activity was happening,

293
00:20:10.458 --> 00:20:13.833
I wanted to help shut it down.

294
00:20:13.916 --> 00:20:20.583
But we found that there
wasn’t any truth in it.

295
00:20:20.666 --> 00:20:25.708
The camp ‘True Directions’
never existed.

296
00:20:25.791 --> 00:20:32.250
What did exist was a 1999 movie
starring drag queen RuPaul,

297
00:20:32.333 --> 00:20:37.625
which is a satire on sexual orientation
change effort therapy.

298
00:20:37.708 --> 00:20:43.166
In that satire movie,
the camp was called ‘True Directions.’

299
00:20:43.250 --> 00:20:48.583
In this movie, parents sent their gay
or LGBT identified children

300
00:20:48.666 --> 00:20:51.583
to a fictitious camp,
called True Directions,

301
00:20:51.666 --> 00:20:55.250
intending to: ‘turn them
from gay to straight’.

302
00:20:55.333 --> 00:20:58.208
The whole story
that Brielle Goldani told

303
00:20:58.291 --> 00:21:03.166
was from this 1999 movie
starring drag queen RuPaul.

304
00:21:03.250 --> 00:21:07.000
I called the Ohio Secretary of State,
and Attorney General’s office,

305
00:21:07.083 --> 00:21:11.125
and found no such camp
called True Directions ever existed.

306
00:21:11.208 --> 00:21:13.291
I spoke to the
church in New Jersey,

307
00:21:13.375 --> 00:21:16.833
that Brielle Goldani said
sponsored her to go to this camp.

308
00:21:16.916 --> 00:21:22.166
They said they would not ever agree to,
or support, any such endeavour.

309
00:21:22.250 --> 00:21:26.958
We exposed this story as lies.

310
00:21:27.041 --> 00:21:29.666
We told reporters:

311
00:21:29.750 --> 00:21:33.708
‘This story has been entered
into evidence in testimony

312
00:21:33.791 --> 00:21:36.916
and this is affecting children’s lives
in New Jersey’.

313
00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:39.416
The reporters wouldn’t touch it.

314
00:21:39.500 --> 00:21:43.416
They completely shut us down, they
wouldn’t allow our voices to be heard.

315
00:21:43.500 --> 00:21:46.375
Tragically that bill
got through the legislator

316
00:21:46.458 --> 00:21:48.916
and was signed
by the governor in August 2013.

317
00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:51.750
We asked:

318
00:21:51.833 --> 00:21:56.291
What is the evidence that people
are born with their sexual orientation?

319
00:21:56.375 --> 00:22:00.958
What is the evidence
that they cannot change?

320
00:22:01.041 --> 00:22:06.250
These seem to me to be fair
and appropriate questions.

321
00:22:06.333 --> 00:22:09.958
We addressed them to the president
of the Royal College.

322
00:22:10.041 --> 00:22:12.500
She never replied.

323
00:22:13.583 --> 00:22:18.583
After two months we had a letter saying
‘we will not discuss these things’.

324
00:22:21.500 --> 00:22:23.083
I think that's gross.

325
00:22:25.125 --> 00:22:27.125
It's rude.

326
00:22:27.208 --> 00:22:30.875
In terms of their medical
responsibilities, it's gross.

327
00:22:30.958 --> 00:22:36.250
We asked proper, well researched,
and detailed questions about the science

328
00:22:36.333 --> 00:22:38.125
and they won’t discuss it.

329
00:22:38.208 --> 00:22:43.041
The Royal College of Psychiatrists
misled both church and state.

330
00:22:43.125 --> 00:22:48.416
They made a submission to the Church
of England which had five broad themes:

331
00:22:48.500 --> 00:22:51.208
You’re born gay
because it’s biological;

332
00:22:51.291 --> 00:22:53.583
If you are gay,
you can’t change;

333
00:22:53.666 --> 00:22:56.375
If you try to change
you’ll harm yourself;

334
00:22:56.458 --> 00:23:00.166
If you are gay,
and depressed or suicidal

335
00:23:00.250 --> 00:23:04.750
you are probably suffering
from homophobia in society;

336
00:23:04.833 --> 00:23:09.458
If you are gay, and find it hard to hold
a same-sex relationship together,

337
00:23:09.541 --> 00:23:11.750
it’s probably society’s fault.

338
00:23:11.833 --> 00:23:15.500
All five of those
are unsupported by science.

339
00:23:15.583 --> 00:23:21.750
The Royal College undermined
the first two of these in 2014,

340
00:23:21.833 --> 00:23:24.708
when they brought out
a new position statement.

341
00:23:24.791 --> 00:23:28.833
Now it says sexual orientation
is a combination

342
00:23:28.916 --> 00:23:32.583
of biology and early life experiences

343
00:23:32.666 --> 00:23:36.083
They used the crucial word, postnatal.

344
00:23:36.166 --> 00:23:40.791
What happens to you postnatally,
means you were not born that way.

345
00:23:40.875 --> 00:23:45.250
That message needs to go out around
the world: you were not born that way.

346
00:23:45.333 --> 00:23:51.041
They also acknowledge a fluidity
in sexual orientation,

347
00:23:51.125 --> 00:23:56.250
saying it can change,
not that it can be changed.

348
00:23:56.333 --> 00:23:58.666
That undermines their second point.

349
00:23:58.750 --> 00:24:05.708
For the third point the Royal College
misrepresented a scientific paper,

350
00:24:05.791 --> 00:24:11.041
by changing the word majority
to read ‘small minority’.

351
00:24:11.125 --> 00:24:18.083
The Church of England’s working group
rebutted the fourth and fifth points

352
00:24:18.166 --> 00:24:25.166
because the studies referred to
did not support the points made.

353
00:24:26.666 --> 00:24:30.666
So all five points were invalidated.

354
00:24:30.750 --> 00:24:34.541
Science, in many respects,
has been hijacked

355
00:24:34.625 --> 00:24:40.375
and I don’t think you should base
a civil rights movement

356
00:24:40.458 --> 00:24:42.666
on the suppression
of certain data.

357
00:24:42.750 --> 00:24:48.916
Why is there such criticism
against you and reparative therapy?

358
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:52.583
The greatest threat to the gay agenda

359
00:24:52.666 --> 00:24:55.083
is when one man stands up and says

360
00:24:55.166 --> 00:24:58.333
‘I was once homosexual
and I’m no longer homosexual’.

361
00:24:58.416 --> 00:25:00.916
That's a major threat to the gay agenda.

362
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:04.375
Fundamental to the gay agenda is:
‘you're born gay’.

363
00:25:04.458 --> 00:25:09.208
An example of the politicisation
of this subject:

364
00:25:09.291 --> 00:25:13.250
In 2009,
the American Psychological Association

365
00:25:13.333 --> 00:25:16.625
wanted to release

366
00:25:16.708 --> 00:25:21.166
an extensive study on homosexuality.

367
00:25:21.250 --> 00:25:24.666
From Narth,

368
00:25:24.750 --> 00:25:29.375
myself, Yarhouse, Stanton Jones,
Dean Byrd, we submitted our names.

369
00:25:29.458 --> 00:25:34.500
We are all known for research
in this area.

370
00:25:34.583 --> 00:25:36.500
We were all rejected.

371
00:25:36.583 --> 00:25:40.958
Client autonomy is very important.

372
00:25:41.041 --> 00:25:45.375
If we imagine a spectrum,

373
00:25:45.458 --> 00:25:48.708
the UK’s major
mental health institutions

374
00:25:48.791 --> 00:25:53.625
have moved from the client end
of the spectrum to the therapist end.

375
00:25:53.708 --> 00:25:57.083
Now the therapist directs the goals.

376
00:25:57.166 --> 00:26:02.083
The issues lacking scientific rigour

377
00:26:02.166 --> 00:26:05.500
are summarised
in this consensus document,

378
00:26:05.583 --> 00:26:09.125
that the UK Mental Health Organisations
have produced.

379
00:26:09.208 --> 00:26:11.125
It asks three questions.

380
00:26:11.208 --> 00:26:15.041
What is conversion therapy?

381
00:26:15.125 --> 00:26:20.375
Part of the answer: 'We believe
it has the potential to cause harm.’

382
00:26:20.458 --> 00:26:23.333
Why do therapy professionals
consider it un-ethical?

383
00:26:23.416 --> 00:26:28.333
‘We believe it would be irresponsible
and potentially damaging.’

384
00:26:28.416 --> 00:26:31.875
What does research tell us
about conversion therapy?

385
00:26:31.958 --> 00:26:35.208
‘We believe that it would be
likely to reinforce the notion

386
00:26:35.291 --> 00:26:37.666
that these feelings
are wrong or abnormal.’

387
00:26:37.750 --> 00:26:40.166
These are not scientific answers,

388
00:26:40.250 --> 00:26:42.625
they are ideological.

389
00:26:42.708 --> 00:26:45.625
Science has been replaced by ideology.

390
00:26:45.708 --> 00:26:51.000
The American Psychological Association
is governed by special interest groups.

391
00:26:51.083 --> 00:26:56.000
That dominates the policy making.

392
00:26:56.083 --> 00:26:58.041
The policy is not based on science.

393
00:26:58.125 --> 00:27:01.500
The policy is based on politics.

394
00:27:03.458 --> 00:27:08.083
On both sides of the Atlantic,

395
00:27:08.166 --> 00:27:13.000
there is a political, or unchallenged
ideological, perspective

396
00:27:13.083 --> 00:27:15.875
that distorts scientific enquiry.

397
00:27:15.958 --> 00:27:20.375
It has completely omitted
importance evidence

398
00:27:20.458 --> 00:27:23.125
to support
the opposite point of view.

399
00:27:23.208 --> 00:27:27.625
So, it's about the nature
of the evidence

400
00:27:27.708 --> 00:27:30.166
that is either being presented or not?

401
00:27:30.250 --> 00:27:31.333
It does.

402
00:27:31.416 --> 00:27:34.500
The Royal College of Psychiatrists

403
00:27:34.583 --> 00:27:37.333
completely overlooked
the evidence of twin studies

404
00:27:37.416 --> 00:27:39.875
as to whether people are born gay,

405
00:27:39.958 --> 00:27:43.708
and the evidence that people can change.

406
00:27:43.791 --> 00:27:50.791
Now it says that there is no evidence
that therapy works.

407
00:27:50.875 --> 00:27:53.000
But that itself is a distortion.

408
00:27:53.083 --> 00:27:56.541
What they should have said
is that there is no evidence - at all!

409
00:27:56.625 --> 00:28:01.833
Are we dealing
with poor scientific enquiry?

410
00:28:01.916 --> 00:28:06.083
Or more seriously,
fraudulent research,

411
00:28:06.166 --> 00:28:08.750
actively designed to arrive

412
00:28:08.833 --> 00:28:13.125
at a presupposed ideological
and political position?

413
00:28:13.208 --> 00:28:16.375
There is a lot of concern in medicine

414
00:28:16.458 --> 00:28:20.750
about the fraudulent interpretations
of science.

415
00:28:20.833 --> 00:28:24.250
A former editor
of the British Medical Journal

416
00:28:24.333 --> 00:28:29.083
thinks people who fraudulently report
things should be criminalised.

417
00:28:29.166 --> 00:28:34.250
The General Medical Council,
launched a national campaign

418
00:28:34.333 --> 00:28:38.333
to alert doctors to scientific fraud,

419
00:28:38.416 --> 00:28:44.291
to encourage them to speak out,
when they see it.

420
00:28:44.375 --> 00:28:47.500
They say that it is fundamental

421
00:28:47.583 --> 00:28:51.583
that people can be challenged
and ask questions,

422
00:28:51.666 --> 00:28:55.000
and that the questions
should be treated rigorously.

423
00:28:55.083 --> 00:28:57.583
They took this campaign
around the country.

424
00:28:57.666 --> 00:29:00.250
So it seemed only appropriate

425
00:29:00.333 --> 00:29:07.333
that we took this problem about the
Royal College of Psychiatrists to them.

426
00:29:09.208 --> 00:29:12.833
They would not touch it.
They are a toothless tiger!

427
00:29:12.916 --> 00:29:17.666
We never talk anyone into anything.

428
00:29:17.750 --> 00:29:22.000
We provide information
about the possibility

429
00:29:22.083 --> 00:29:27.083
of a correlation between past wounds

430
00:29:27.166 --> 00:29:30.333
and the development
of a homosexual,

431
00:29:30.416 --> 00:29:34.291
bisexual,
or sometimes transgender orientation.

432
00:29:37.250 --> 00:29:39.875
Each person must see
for him or herself

433
00:29:39.958 --> 00:29:43.250
whether it is relevant
to them or not, in their situation,

434
00:29:43.333 --> 00:29:48.250
if they struggle
with these types of feelings.

435
00:29:48.333 --> 00:29:53.375
In the 20 years
I’ve been talking with people,

436
00:29:53.458 --> 00:29:59.041
I can speak only of the people who
have come to me, or who have asked us.

437
00:29:59.125 --> 00:30:05.166
It’s always been some kind of wounds

438
00:30:05.250 --> 00:30:09.333
which significantly contributed

439
00:30:09.416 --> 00:30:14.250
to the emergence
of unwanted homosexual feelings.

440
00:30:14.333 --> 00:30:19.041
But each person must look
and see for himself,

441
00:30:19.125 --> 00:30:24.125
and I am convinced that each person
can see for themselves

442
00:30:24.208 --> 00:30:28.125
what is relevant to them and what isn’t.

443
00:30:28.208 --> 00:30:34.666
In many cases homosexual feelings

444
00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:39.375
play a role in childhood wounds
and attachment-related trauma

445
00:30:39.458 --> 00:30:43.666
This is something that therapeutic
research discovered many years ago,

446
00:30:43.750 --> 00:30:48.458
since Anna Freud,
and later the psychoanalysts.

447
00:30:48.541 --> 00:30:52.250
It is not something
that has appeared out of thin air.

448
00:30:52.333 --> 00:30:56.875
There’s also an interesting study
from Denmark,

449
00:30:56.958 --> 00:31:02.916
in which all civil registry documents

450
00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:04.750
were examined

451
00:31:04.833 --> 00:31:10.708
and compared to see if there was any
difference in the childhood upbringing

452
00:31:10.791 --> 00:31:13.333
of men who are married,

453
00:31:13.416 --> 00:31:18.000
and men who live
in a registered homosexual partnership.

454
00:31:18.083 --> 00:31:22.458
They noticed that
significantly more often,

455
00:31:22.541 --> 00:31:27.416
men who live in a registered
homosexual partnership,

456
00:31:27.500 --> 00:31:34.291
experienced their parents’ divorce
before they were six years old,

457
00:31:34.375 --> 00:31:38.500
and as a result grew up
without a father.

458
00:31:38.583 --> 00:31:42.125
These correlations may not be applicable
to everyone,

459
00:31:42.208 --> 00:31:47.375
but they are still clues
which encourage people

460
00:31:47.458 --> 00:31:53.541
to look into their own past,
to see if there are connections.

461
00:31:53.625 --> 00:32:00.333
People are glad and relieved
when they find connections.

462
00:32:00.416 --> 00:32:03.416
Research has indicated

463
00:32:03.500 --> 00:32:07.791
that homosexuality
is not simply in-born.

464
00:32:07.875 --> 00:32:14.208
My Christian faith and my conversion
was the biggest change in my whole life.

465
00:32:14.291 --> 00:32:20.625
When I was 13-14,
I discovered my homosexual feelings.

466
00:32:20.708 --> 00:32:25.250
The sex education that was given
at school was nothing.

467
00:32:25.333 --> 00:32:28.041
There was no education
about homosexual feelings.

468
00:32:28.125 --> 00:32:32.000
There was a lack of knowledge
and people around me

469
00:32:32.083 --> 00:32:38.708
who could tell me something valid
about having homosexual feelings.

470
00:32:38.791 --> 00:32:42.583
That is something
that I would love to see different:

471
00:32:42.666 --> 00:32:46.625
education where young people
get real information.

472
00:32:46.708 --> 00:32:50.166
Not just ‘You’re born like this.'

473
00:32:50.250 --> 00:32:55.250
I believe this isn't true,
but that's what I grew up with.

474
00:32:55.333 --> 00:33:00.208
'Make the best out of it
and live happily ever after.’

475
00:33:00.291 --> 00:33:04.833
I would love to see that being changed.
Because it’s not the truth.

476
00:33:04.916 --> 00:33:08.750
…Non-scientific influences are often
very important

477
00:33:08.833 --> 00:33:15.833
in shaping the final interpretations
of the data from science

478
00:33:15.916 --> 00:33:20.958
that are disseminated to the public.

479
00:33:21.041 --> 00:33:25.041
Looking at the communities of scientists
and professional organisations,

480
00:33:25.125 --> 00:33:29.416
there is typically very little
ideological difference

481
00:33:29.500 --> 00:33:31.666
within these communities.

482
00:33:31.750 --> 00:33:35.541
Socio-politically
they share the same point of view.

483
00:33:35.625 --> 00:33:40.666
You do not find a lot of diversity
in term of viewpoint.

484
00:33:40.750 --> 00:33:47.333
That risks confirmation bias

485
00:33:47.416 --> 00:33:52.375
where we value results more highly

486
00:33:52.458 --> 00:33:57.791
when they match our particular moral
and political beliefs,

487
00:33:57.875 --> 00:34:02.000
and disregard findings
and results

488
00:34:02.083 --> 00:34:07.708
that don’t line up with our values
and our socio-political beliefs.

489
00:34:07.791 --> 00:34:14.041
In many areas of life,
we go in with presuppositions.

490
00:34:14.125 --> 00:34:16.666
All our conclusions
are worked out on the basis

491
00:34:16.750 --> 00:34:19.000
of fundamental assumptions
we’re making.

492
00:34:19.083 --> 00:34:24.958
If you assume that homosexuality
is an entirely healthy option,

493
00:34:25.041 --> 00:34:30.041
and that people are born
with their sexual orientation,

494
00:34:30.125 --> 00:34:35.708
then you will assume
that is the way it should be.

495
00:34:35.791 --> 00:34:39.625
Then you think anyone
who wants to alter sexual desires,

496
00:34:39.708 --> 00:34:42.083
is trying to do something un-natural.

497
00:34:42.166 --> 00:34:45.375
If you assume

498
00:34:45.458 --> 00:34:49.666
that the natural order of sexuality

499
00:34:49.750 --> 00:34:52.791
is male and female,

500
00:34:52.875 --> 00:34:56.500
for the uniting of their relationship,

501
00:34:56.583 --> 00:34:58.833
and also for the procreation
of children,

502
00:34:58.916 --> 00:35:01.333
you will think this is natural.

503
00:35:01.416 --> 00:35:05.291
Then you’re more likely to be
sympathetic to people

504
00:35:05.375 --> 00:35:08.875
who have homosexual desires
and want out of it.

505
00:35:08.958 --> 00:35:14.291
Research is not occurring
from a different point of view.

506
00:35:14.375 --> 00:35:17.541
It might shed light

507
00:35:17.625 --> 00:35:21.916
on sexual orientation change.

508
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:27.125
We will not get that unless
we have researchers and scientists

509
00:35:27.208 --> 00:35:33.083
that are able to frame
the research problem,

510
00:35:33.166 --> 00:35:37.250
and bring different values,

511
00:35:37.333 --> 00:35:40.791
because that will often affect
the interpretation.

512
00:35:40.875 --> 00:35:44.958
That is why diversity of viewpoint

513
00:35:45.041 --> 00:35:49.916
and diversity of ideological
understanding and diversity of values

514
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:53.708
is so critical to the practice
of science.

515
00:35:53.791 --> 00:35:56.208
The evidence that we can show

516
00:35:56.291 --> 00:35:58.500
is that change is possible.

517
00:35:58.583 --> 00:36:03.166
We can show it in hard numbers.

518
00:36:03.250 --> 00:36:05.875
Certainly not for everyone.
We always say that.

519
00:36:05.958 --> 00:36:08.416
Not everyone can change.

520
00:36:08.500 --> 00:36:13.666
On average, people benefit
through this kind of therapy,

521
00:36:13.750 --> 00:36:20.083
in terms of reducing
same-sex attraction.

522
00:36:20.166 --> 00:36:22.333
It doesn’t do harm.

523
00:36:22.416 --> 00:36:27.166
The study will give legitimacy
to our claims,

524
00:36:27.250 --> 00:36:32.041
and it’ll encourage other people
who are wanting such help,

525
00:36:32.125 --> 00:36:34.416
to seek such help.

526
00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:39.041
Hopefully it will silence those
who are trying to discredit us

527
00:36:39.125 --> 00:36:44.583
by putting out this repeated lie
that we are harming people.

528
00:36:44.666 --> 00:36:50.875
We are under the oversight of the
institutional review board of university

529
00:36:50.958 --> 00:36:54.000
of which I am a professor.

530
00:36:54.083 --> 00:36:57.958
That board is under the authority

531
00:36:58.041 --> 00:37:03.666
of the Department of Health
and Human Services.

532
00:37:03.750 --> 00:37:09.875
We use standard procedures for
the protection of human participants.

533
00:37:09.958 --> 00:37:14.666
That's what we're using.

534
00:37:14.750 --> 00:37:21.333
They have a lot of standards
for the protection of participants.

535
00:37:21.416 --> 00:37:24.541
It’s very important for us to have that,

536
00:37:24.625 --> 00:37:29.833
to do this research with that kind
of rigor of protection

537
00:37:29.916 --> 00:37:33.083
because we care about the participants.

538
00:37:33.166 --> 00:37:40.041
Also, we want to show people
that this is legitimate research.

539
00:37:40.125 --> 00:37:44.291
The differences regarding support

540
00:37:44.375 --> 00:37:47.500
for those wanting to move away
from homosexuality,

541
00:37:47.583 --> 00:37:49.916
seem intractable.

542
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:54.166
But the efforts to discuss
both the available evidence,

543
00:37:54.250 --> 00:37:57.791
and the framing of the debate,
will continue.

544
00:37:57.875 --> 00:38:00.875
Work continues in three areas:

545
00:38:00.958 --> 00:38:07.875
Firstly, how to best help those with
unwanted homosexual feelings.

546
00:38:07.958 --> 00:38:11.791
Secondly, monitoring
and intervening

547
00:38:11.875 --> 00:38:17.041
in political institutions
that derive world political agendas,

548
00:38:17.125 --> 00:38:20.500
such as the UN and the OSCE.

549
00:38:20.583 --> 00:38:21.625
Finally,

550
00:38:21.708 --> 00:38:28.708
challenging misleading assumptions
in and outside the church.

551
00:38:28.791 --> 00:38:33.750
Activists and revisionists

552
00:38:33.833 --> 00:38:37.208
wanting to change Christian teaching
on sexuality,

553
00:38:37.291 --> 00:38:39.833
claim that loving
homosexual relationships

554
00:38:39.916 --> 00:38:41.666
were unknown
among the ancients.

555
00:38:41.750 --> 00:38:47.833
They claim Apostle Paul’s
opposition to homosexual practices

556
00:38:47.916 --> 00:38:54.333
was because he didn’t understand
homosexuality as an inborn orientation.

557
00:38:54.416 --> 00:38:58.041
Scholars like Hubbard refute this.

558
00:38:58.125 --> 00:39:03.166
Many of the ancients questioned
sexual behaviours of the day.

559
00:39:03.250 --> 00:39:07.958
After slave builders built
the Colosseum in Rome,

560
00:39:08.041 --> 00:39:14.333
Jewish slaves, mindful of Jewish
or Christian teachings on sexual purity,

561
00:39:14.416 --> 00:39:17.875
may have been dispersed
into other Italian towns,

562
00:39:17.958 --> 00:39:23.583
including Pompeii and Herculaneum,
at the foot of Mount Vesuvius.

563
00:39:23.666 --> 00:39:25.791
Wherever the Gospel went,

564
00:39:25.875 --> 00:39:29.625
Judeo-Christian values challenged

565
00:39:29.708 --> 00:39:33.250
the pansexual Greco-Roman values then,

566
00:39:33.333 --> 00:39:36.625
just as it continues to do today.

567
00:39:36.708 --> 00:39:41.166
Homosexual practices had been unknown
in Ancient Israel,

568
00:39:41.250 --> 00:39:42.500
the home of the slaves.

569
00:39:42.583 --> 00:39:49.000
There's no record of homosexuality
taking root in that society.

570
00:39:49.083 --> 00:39:53.208
Such practices, however, were common in
Europe.

571
00:39:53.291 --> 00:39:55.833
What did the slaves make of it?

572
00:39:55.916 --> 00:40:00.750
Over the years, archaeologists
have found many places in Pompeii

573
00:40:00.833 --> 00:40:02.333
reputed to be brothels.

574
00:40:04.125 --> 00:40:09.000
It's usually thought so
because of erotic murals

575
00:40:09.083 --> 00:40:12.625
that are placed on the walls.

576
00:40:12.708 --> 00:40:15.458
The building behind me,
the central Lupanar,

577
00:40:15.541 --> 00:40:20.458
is probably the best example
of a dedicated site

578
00:40:20.541 --> 00:40:23.416
that is known to have been a brothel.

579
00:40:23.500 --> 00:40:28.958
It has seven erotic paintings,

580
00:40:29.041 --> 00:40:33.750
above the doors
of the five rooms,

581
00:40:33.833 --> 00:40:37.333
where people would consort
with prostitutes.

582
00:40:37.416 --> 00:40:41.625
There are also stone masonry beds.

583
00:40:41.708 --> 00:40:46.625
Those are two of the characteristics
that archaeologists now require,

584
00:40:46.708 --> 00:40:51.125
before they categorise something
as a brothel.

585
00:40:51.208 --> 00:40:54.375
Upstairs
there were a further five rooms,

586
00:40:54.458 --> 00:40:57.583
probably living quarters
for those who worked downstairs,

587
00:40:57.666 --> 00:41:00.958
all of whom
would have been slaves.

588
00:41:01.041 --> 00:41:06.125
And there was also one large room
upstairs, perhaps a common room.

589
00:41:06.208 --> 00:41:10.000
Sexual desires affect everyone.

590
00:41:11.333 --> 00:41:15.708
And we all, reluctant as we often are,

591
00:41:15.791 --> 00:41:20.208
have to control our desires,
and channel them in certain directions.

592
00:41:20.291 --> 00:41:24.750
Sexual anarchy in society
is frightening.

593
00:41:26.625 --> 00:41:30.583
The illegitimacy, the disease,
the lack of relationship,

594
00:41:30.666 --> 00:41:34.041
the social isolation of
people.

595
00:41:34.125 --> 00:41:37.500
If they are not locked into
a caring, loving community

596
00:41:37.583 --> 00:41:40.583
that’s cemented
by the married relationship,

597
00:41:40.666 --> 00:41:46.250
which is so fundamental
in Christian understanding of society,

598
00:41:46.333 --> 00:41:48.958
then there is mayhem.

599
00:41:49.041 --> 00:41:52.500
So we have to control our desires.

600
00:41:52.583 --> 00:41:54.708
And we have to focus them.

601
00:41:54.791 --> 00:41:58.583
And the question is how we focus them,
where we focus them.

602
00:41:58.666 --> 00:42:01.875
But we are not a slave to our desires.

603
00:42:01.958 --> 00:42:06.166
There is a great myth
that we have to fulfil every urge.

604
00:42:06.250 --> 00:42:07.958
It leads to anarchy.

605
00:42:08.041 --> 00:42:12.250
We are in the famous Lupinarium
in Pompeii.

606
00:42:12.333 --> 00:42:16.541
This is where men
would come to have sex,

607
00:42:16.625 --> 00:42:22.250
usually with slaves
under the control of slave owners.

608
00:42:23.375 --> 00:42:26.958
In his book ‘Roman Homosexuality,

609
00:42:27.041 --> 00:42:30.500
Ideologies of Masculinity
in Classical Antiquity’,

610
00:42:30.583 --> 00:42:36.666
Craig Williams points out

611
00:42:36.750 --> 00:42:43.000
that the average married male Roman

612
00:42:43.083 --> 00:42:46.458
could have sex with his slaves,

613
00:42:46.541 --> 00:42:50.541
and not risk criticism from his peers.

614
00:42:50.625 --> 00:42:53.583
This is a time that

615
00:42:53.666 --> 00:42:59.000
adultery was frowned
on more than pederasty.

616
00:42:59.083 --> 00:43:01.916
Interestingly, he points out,

617
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:07.791
if a man’s masculinity
was impugned by his neighbour,

618
00:43:07.875 --> 00:43:11.125
he could cite the fact that

619
00:43:11.208 --> 00:43:15.875
he had had sexual relations
with his accuser’s sons,

620
00:43:15.958 --> 00:43:20.416
as a way of countering
this accusation.

621
00:43:20.500 --> 00:43:24.625
Men who were known
to be womanisers

622
00:43:24.708 --> 00:43:28.750
could be thought of as
effeminate or soft.

623
00:43:28.833 --> 00:43:33.583
This is a completely different
ideology

624
00:43:33.666 --> 00:43:37.958
of sexuality and masculinity.

625
00:43:38.041 --> 00:43:41.125
You could be an adulterer

626
00:43:41.208 --> 00:43:45.458
and also engage in homosexual activity.

627
00:43:45.541 --> 00:43:49.625
This demonstrates
it was a pansexual society.

628
00:43:49.708 --> 00:43:52.458
It had a completely different
understanding

629
00:43:52.541 --> 00:43:57.041
of the way men
and women should behave.

630
00:43:57.125 --> 00:44:03.000
This demonstrates that we are trained:

631
00:44:03.083 --> 00:44:07.666
we acquire the sexual mores

632
00:44:07.750 --> 00:44:12.208
of the culture and the society
that we live in.

633
00:44:12.291 --> 00:44:16.000
This is surely evidence

634
00:44:16.083 --> 00:44:19.500
that our social environment
makes a huge contribution

635
00:44:19.583 --> 00:44:22.458
towards our understanding of sexuality.

636
00:44:22.541 --> 00:44:25.875
One of the reasons for coming to Pompeii

637
00:44:25.958 --> 00:44:30.833
was to understand the difference
between ancient ideologies

638
00:44:30.916 --> 00:44:35.791
and modern ideologies

639
00:44:35.875 --> 00:44:42.875
and what they tell us about ancient
and modern concepts of sexuality.

640
00:44:42.958 --> 00:44:46.375
This helps us to understand

641
00:44:46.458 --> 00:44:52.666
the environmental and cultural input
to sexuality

642
00:44:52.750 --> 00:44:59.750
that we all experience from the society
and culture we grow up in.

643
00:45:00.750 --> 00:45:05.375
It teaches us that ideologies come,
and they go.

644
00:45:05.458 --> 00:45:09.166
It is the culture
that brings that about.

645
00:45:09.250 --> 00:45:12.833
The brain itself isn’t fully developed,

646
00:45:12.916 --> 00:45:18.333
until you’re well into your 20s,
mid 20s.

647
00:45:18.416 --> 00:45:21.083
This has enormous implications
for adolescence.

648
00:45:21.166 --> 00:45:23.791
If adolescence carries on
that long,

649
00:45:23.875 --> 00:45:28.250
then what you experience in
adolescence,

650
00:45:28.333 --> 00:45:30.125
lays down neurological responses,

651
00:45:30.208 --> 00:45:33.250
pathways of desire,

652
00:45:33.333 --> 00:45:36.791
which can be moulded
and shaped by your activities.

653
00:45:36.875 --> 00:45:40.333
So in your adolescence,

654
00:45:40.416 --> 00:45:43.166
you are laying down and reinforcing

655
00:45:43.250 --> 00:45:45.833
what are going to be
the instinctive responses,

656
00:45:45.916 --> 00:45:47.750
that you will enjoy
in later life.

657
00:45:47.833 --> 00:45:52.125
So we have to allow for people

658
00:45:52.208 --> 00:45:57.958
to not set down pathways.

659
00:45:58.041 --> 00:46:01.625
If you are constantly reinforcing
those pathways,

660
00:46:01.708 --> 00:46:03.666
it’s very difficult to throw off.

661
00:46:03.750 --> 00:46:06.708
Similarly promiscuity
becomes difficult to throw off.

662
00:46:06.791 --> 00:46:11.083
Later in life, adulterous desires
become laid down.

663
00:46:11.166 --> 00:46:15.541
If you’ve wrestled with these things
in your adolescence or early adult life,

664
00:46:15.625 --> 00:46:20.833
they probably recur throughout life
and have to be dealt with.

665
00:46:20.916 --> 00:46:23.375
You’ve got to face them.
The battle goes on.

666
00:46:23.458 --> 00:46:25.208
Everyone is affected by this.

667
00:46:25.291 --> 00:46:28.166
We have to learn to control
our sexual desires.

668
00:46:28.250 --> 00:46:34.458
I can't relate to
those critics who blame me,

669
00:46:34.541 --> 00:46:38.208
for ‘imposing my world view on others’.

670
00:46:38.291 --> 00:46:43.375
There are so many possible
approaches to the topic,

671
00:46:43.458 --> 00:46:47.625
and I accept it if others
have another perspective.

672
00:46:47.708 --> 00:46:52.875
My job is to help those people who are
not comfortable with being gay,

673
00:46:52.958 --> 00:46:57.375
and seek change.

674
00:46:57.458 --> 00:47:03.416
It is important that we find a way
together to approach the issue.

675
00:47:03.500 --> 00:47:10.333
Everybody should be free
to have his own opinion.

676
00:47:10.416 --> 00:47:14.958
I don't want to impose anything
on anyone.

677
00:47:15.041 --> 00:47:20.083
When people come to me

678
00:47:20.166 --> 00:47:26.666
with unwanted homosexual feelings,

679
00:47:26.750 --> 00:47:28.791
as a pastor and counsellor,

680
00:47:28.875 --> 00:47:31.708
I am interested in the person,
not just in the issue.

681
00:47:31.791 --> 00:47:36.000
I want to see the person for whom
this is a genuine existential question.

682
00:47:36.083 --> 00:47:40.166
It is important for me to meet him

683
00:47:40.250 --> 00:47:45.333
and to support him
with an authentic attitude.

684
00:47:45.416 --> 00:47:52.250
And to seek answers with him
in his quest.

685
00:47:52.333 --> 00:47:58.583
People who struggle with homosexuality,
also attend our events.

686
00:47:58.666 --> 00:48:04.500
This is why we've considered it
to be important.

687
00:48:05.750 --> 00:48:09.250
If early bonding doesn't take place,

688
00:48:09.333 --> 00:48:13.708
wounds might remain that cause pain.
These traumas will need healing.

689
00:48:13.791 --> 00:48:17.500
Recently, we organized a workshop
for both professionals

690
00:48:17.583 --> 00:48:19.583
and for those affected,

691
00:48:19.666 --> 00:48:26.666
on how to get over
the traumatic bonding experiences

692
00:48:26.750 --> 00:48:33.541
and how to find healing.

693
00:48:33.625 --> 00:48:38.291
Our intention is to draw
the professional's attention

694
00:48:38.375 --> 00:48:41.291
to the precise impact of this issue,

695
00:48:41.375 --> 00:48:46.750
as it is important in the provision of
more protected services at childbirth.

696
00:48:46.833 --> 00:48:49.166
For over ten years,

697
00:48:49.250 --> 00:48:52.458
I worked with university students
in a student ministry.

698
00:48:52.541 --> 00:48:55.791
Now I am teaching
counsellors myself.

699
00:48:55.875 --> 00:48:59.458
I notice that many
young people contact me

700
00:48:59.541 --> 00:49:04.541
with typical questions
that they deal with in Hungary,

701
00:49:04.625 --> 00:49:07.583
and all over Europe.

702
00:49:07.666 --> 00:49:13.208
Like how to raise a family,
choose a career,

703
00:49:13.291 --> 00:49:15.333
and on the matter of sexuality.

704
00:49:15.416 --> 00:49:21.875
When they approach me
with unwanted homosexual feelings,

705
00:49:21.958 --> 00:49:25.458
I often realise that they can focus

706
00:49:25.541 --> 00:49:29.583
only on this particular aspect.

707
00:49:31.833 --> 00:49:36.708
I try to help them to widen
their perspective,

708
00:49:36.791 --> 00:49:43.416
and to realise that their
sexuality is a process.

709
00:49:43.500 --> 00:49:47.666
They need to learn to see this
in the broad context

710
00:49:47.750 --> 00:49:49.375
of their whole personality,

711
00:49:49.458 --> 00:49:54.166
and in the context
of the history of their relationships.

712
00:49:54.250 --> 00:49:58.916
Anecdotal evidence
is not the same as public policy,

713
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:02.083
but it is influential.

714
00:50:02.166 --> 00:50:06.958
It has raised the profile
of the LGBTI agenda across the world.

715
00:50:07.041 --> 00:50:09.375
There is another voice, however.

716
00:50:09.458 --> 00:50:11.791
Perhaps hesitant.
Less well promoted.

717
00:50:11.875 --> 00:50:16.458
Often marginalised and ignored,
and sometimes hated.

718
00:50:16.541 --> 00:50:21.875
From countries across Europe,
in different languages,

719
00:50:21.958 --> 00:50:24.458
this group of individuals
share their stories.

720
00:50:24.541 --> 00:50:28.000
Telling us what is important
to their happiness and well-being.

721
00:50:28.083 --> 00:50:31.625
They share them
not to offer a new dogma

722
00:50:31.708 --> 00:50:35.916
but because they have found new pathways
that have been difficult to discover,

723
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:38.666
perhaps even hidden from them.

724
00:50:38.750 --> 00:50:42.083
They deserve to be celebrated
and encouraged

725
00:50:42.166 --> 00:50:45.458
in their willingness to stand up
for their own truths.

726
00:50:45.541 --> 00:50:48.791
Those who cannot show
their faces remind us

727
00:50:48.875 --> 00:50:53.083
that speaking out comes at a price
in our modern societies.

728
00:50:53.166 --> 00:50:59.125
About five years ago, I decided
I would rather not live as a homosexual.

729
00:50:59.208 --> 00:51:05.208
One reason is
because a friend contacted me

730
00:51:05.291 --> 00:51:11.791
and told me
about the possibility of change.

731
00:51:11.875 --> 00:51:18.291
The other reason
was that I was stuck.

732
00:51:18.375 --> 00:51:24.833
I mean that I had finished
five relationships with women,

733
00:51:24.916 --> 00:51:29.416
one after the other.

734
00:51:29.500 --> 00:51:33.166
But none of them proved to be,
how shall I say,

735
00:51:33.250 --> 00:51:38.291
they didn't provide me
with what I was hoping for.

736
00:51:38.375 --> 00:51:44.541
My relationship with my father
was really wounded and full of hurt.

737
00:51:47.708 --> 00:51:52.416
For many years
I looked at him as an enemy.

738
00:51:54.291 --> 00:51:58.541
One outcome of this bad relationship

739
00:51:58.625 --> 00:52:01.333
was a growing wall inside of me,

740
00:52:01.833 --> 00:52:08.041
a wall against men,

741
00:52:08.125 --> 00:52:11.625
in my relationships with men.

742
00:52:11.708 --> 00:52:17.125
Actually, I always felt anxious
about how they might think about me.

743
00:52:17.208 --> 00:52:22.625
Responding to whether it was
difficult for me to find any help,

744
00:52:22.708 --> 00:52:27.125
I can say that
I was quite fortunate.

745
00:52:27.208 --> 00:52:33.791
I met a person who recommended
a community in Germany,

746
00:52:33.875 --> 00:52:39.000
that’s to say, an institute
where I could ask for advice.

747
00:52:39.083 --> 00:52:43.666
They later introduced me to a therapist
who was open to my goals,

748
00:52:43.750 --> 00:52:45.958
who did respect them,

749
00:52:46.041 --> 00:52:52.958
and who then could offer me
adequate support.

750
00:52:53.041 --> 00:52:56.750
A lot changed in my relationship
with women, too.

751
00:52:59.583 --> 00:53:02.125
I used to deal with

752
00:53:02.208 --> 00:53:08.000
a significant feeling of inferiority.

753
00:53:08.083 --> 00:53:13.208
That had shaped my relationships
with women.

754
00:53:13.291 --> 00:53:15.750
But by now,
this has passed for the most part.

755
00:53:15.833 --> 00:53:18.208
My name is Allia,
I am from the Netherlands,

756
00:53:18.291 --> 00:53:20.750
and I am in my early thirties ….

757
00:53:20.833 --> 00:53:24.083
My name is Lyndsay Greaves.

758
00:53:24.166 --> 00:53:27.958
I have been married
to John for 26 years,

759
00:53:28.041 --> 00:53:30.791
and we have five children.

760
00:53:30.875 --> 00:53:33.416
I was growing up
as the eldest in a big family.

761
00:53:33.500 --> 00:53:36.541
Around like the age of 14 or 15,

762
00:53:36.625 --> 00:53:40.541
I just realised that I didn’t really
feel attracted to guys,

763
00:53:40.625 --> 00:53:43.000
as a lot of my friends were.

764
00:53:43.083 --> 00:53:47.833
I came more to the realisation that
I felt attracted to women and girls.

765
00:53:47.916 --> 00:53:51.375
I grew up in the North of England,

766
00:53:51.458 --> 00:53:56.000
in what looked like an ordinary family.

767
00:53:56.083 --> 00:54:01.208
My parents were quite disconnected
from each other,

768
00:54:01.291 --> 00:54:03.333
and also from me.

769
00:54:03.416 --> 00:54:06.791
So I grew up a very lonely child,

770
00:54:06.875 --> 00:54:11.458
and just didn’t really have any
connection with my parents at all,

771
00:54:11.541 --> 00:54:16.666
apart from being fed
and clothed.

772
00:54:16.750 --> 00:54:19.625
So my life was outside
of the family.

773
00:54:19.708 --> 00:54:25.375
One of my earliest memories is trying
to get adopted by another family.

774
00:54:25.458 --> 00:54:29.875
I had a sense of lack of belonging.

775
00:54:29.958 --> 00:54:33.125
I began to feel

776
00:54:33.208 --> 00:54:38.583
very overly connected
with certain girls,

777
00:54:38.666 --> 00:54:43.125
and as my teenage years progressed,
that got more intense.

778
00:54:43.208 --> 00:54:46.791
When I was around the age of 19, 20,

779
00:54:46.875 --> 00:54:52.083
I finally opened up
to a very good friend of mine,

780
00:54:52.166 --> 00:54:55.583
and we became very close
very soon in our friendship.

781
00:54:55.666 --> 00:54:58.500
We really opened up to one another,

782
00:54:58.583 --> 00:55:00.500
and at some point,

783
00:55:00.583 --> 00:55:04.958
we started to become very dependent
on one another emotionally.

784
00:55:05.041 --> 00:55:07.833
After one and a half years
we separated.

785
00:55:07.916 --> 00:55:10.875
I had become quite worldly
in my teenage years.

786
00:55:10.958 --> 00:55:13.666
I used to drink a lot
and went to a lot of parties.

787
00:55:13.750 --> 00:55:16.833
This was a whole new world.

788
00:55:16.916 --> 00:55:21.208
I was very aware that my same-sex
attraction

789
00:55:21.291 --> 00:55:23.958
was actually getting worse
not better,

790
00:55:24.041 --> 00:55:25.666
when I became a Christian.

791
00:55:25.750 --> 00:55:28.083
So I got in touch with this pastor.

792
00:55:28.166 --> 00:55:32.250
I started to really push.

793
00:55:32.333 --> 00:55:35.625
I was figuring out who God really was.

794
00:55:35.708 --> 00:55:39.166
I had thought that all that
would go away, but it didn’t.

795
00:55:39.250 --> 00:55:41.125
It actually got worse,

796
00:55:41.208 --> 00:55:45.583
because of the deeper connections
I was making with people,

797
00:55:45.666 --> 00:55:47.208
particularly women.

798
00:55:47.291 --> 00:55:52.375
At that point I got involved in a full
blown relationship with somebody

799
00:55:52.458 --> 00:55:55.000
for a couple of years.

800
00:55:55.083 --> 00:56:00.333
Strangely, it was within
the context of the church.

801
00:56:00.416 --> 00:56:03.291
At the time
I didn’t think that it was wrong.

802
00:56:05.166 --> 00:56:06.166
It felt right.

803
00:56:11.500 --> 00:56:16.083
I led a double life,
and so did she.

804
00:56:16.166 --> 00:56:19.250
But after about two years,

805
00:56:19.333 --> 00:56:22.583
I began to feel that it was wrong,

806
00:56:22.666 --> 00:56:27.083
and I began to know that God
had something more for me than this.

807
00:56:27.166 --> 00:56:34.041
I also realised that there was
definitely some hurt in my life

808
00:56:34.125 --> 00:56:38.666
in the area of womanhood and in the
area of relationships with other women,

809
00:56:38.750 --> 00:56:41.291
and in the area
of relationships with men.

810
00:56:41.375 --> 00:56:46.875
I started to go through inner healing

811
00:56:46.958 --> 00:56:50.916
and to go through my traumas.
I started to work on my issues.

812
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:54.708
Just in that whole process,
I have changed.

813
00:56:56.416 --> 00:56:57.916
I came back from abroad

814
00:56:59.625 --> 00:57:02.208
and I was in faith
to meet somebody.

815
00:57:02.291 --> 00:57:04.375
We met at a party

816
00:57:04.458 --> 00:57:07.416
and we had an immediate connection
with each other.

817
00:57:07.500 --> 00:57:10.583
We both shared a love
for the Jewish people,

818
00:57:10.666 --> 00:57:14.958
and for the Bible
and for all things God!

819
00:57:15.041 --> 00:57:17.708
We had an immediate
connection with each other.

820
00:57:17.791 --> 00:57:23.708
I knew straight away, that this was
the man that God wanted me to marry.

821
00:57:23.791 --> 00:57:26.250
It filled me with great joy.

822
00:57:26.333 --> 00:57:29.333
I was very excited,

823
00:57:29.416 --> 00:57:35.125
and so we actually got married
within a year of knowing each other.

824
00:57:35.208 --> 00:57:38.083
I have definitely changed.
I’ve completely change,

825
00:57:38.166 --> 00:57:40.833
even in the way I look,
the way I view life,

826
00:57:40.916 --> 00:57:45.833
the way I relate to other women,
and the way I relate to men.

827
00:57:45.916 --> 00:57:50.250
Definitely something has grown
in the way I see men.

828
00:57:50.333 --> 00:57:57.083
But I sometimes have a thought.

829
00:57:57.166 --> 00:58:03.291
There are definitely moments
when I think “Okay - I’m triggered”.

830
00:58:03.375 --> 00:58:06.041
But I know where it comes from,

831
00:58:06.125 --> 00:58:08.458
I know what the roots are
to those triggers,

832
00:58:08.541 --> 00:58:10.125
and I know what to do with it.

833
00:58:10.208 --> 00:58:15.416
I got married, but I’d never really
dealt with the root reasons.

834
00:58:15.500 --> 00:58:16.833
Only up to a point.

835
00:58:18.041 --> 00:58:20.791
Then about ten years ago,

836
00:58:20.875 --> 00:58:23.958
after we’d been married some time
and had five children,

837
00:58:24.041 --> 00:58:29.958
we discovered a ministry in the church,
which helped people with this.

838
00:58:30.041 --> 00:58:35.916
At that point I really began
to work on the deep reasons

839
00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:40.875
of why I had been so intensely
same-sex attracted,

840
00:58:40.958 --> 00:58:43.833
because it was still there in my life.

841
00:58:43.916 --> 00:58:47.291
I knew that it was still
a vulnerability.

842
00:58:47.375 --> 00:58:50.666
Ten years ago I had a bit of a crisis
on that issue.

843
00:58:50.750 --> 00:58:55.458
That propelled me to get to
the bottom of it - which I did.

844
00:58:55.541 --> 00:59:00.416
I received some real help
from a particular ministry in this area.

845
00:59:03.208 --> 00:59:09.250
I wish that I had that much earlier on.

846
00:59:09.333 --> 00:59:14.416
I care a lot about people who are
in my situation,

847
00:59:14.500 --> 00:59:16.583
who need help.

848
00:59:16.666 --> 00:59:19.500
My name is David
and I’m 44 years old.

849
00:59:19.583 --> 00:59:25.000
From the very beginning,

850
00:59:25.083 --> 00:59:29.291
I had a very difficult relationship
with my parents.

851
00:59:29.375 --> 00:59:32.250
I lived through
my mother’s feelings,

852
00:59:32.333 --> 00:59:38.166
and found it relatively difficult to
establish a relationship with my father.

853
00:59:38.250 --> 00:59:45.125
So I wasn’t able to open myself up,

854
00:59:45.208 --> 00:59:51.625
and really enter into a relationship,
where my feelings had space.

855
00:59:51.708 --> 00:59:56.041
That’s how I was at school
with people of the same age.

856
00:59:56.125 --> 00:59:58.208
I found things very difficult

857
00:59:58.291 --> 01:00:04.041
and really experienced
that I didn’t belong there,

858
01:00:04.125 --> 01:00:06.250
that I wasn’t accepted there by them.

859
01:00:06.333 --> 01:00:09.000
I’m Ansel Bronk.
I’m 44 years old now.

860
01:00:09.083 --> 01:00:12.791
I am married for 8 years
and we have three children.

861
01:00:12.875 --> 01:00:16.500
In the past I had to hide my feelings,

862
01:00:16.583 --> 01:00:19.500
actually, to hide myself,

863
01:00:19.583 --> 01:00:24.166
because I always had the impression
that I don’t belong with the others;

864
01:00:24.250 --> 01:00:26.166
I’m not enough.

865
01:00:26.250 --> 01:00:29.041
What I do isn’t good enough,

866
01:00:29.125 --> 01:00:33.291
and I can’t match up to other
people’s emotions, to their feelings,

867
01:00:33.375 --> 01:00:37.541
to their character;
I can’t be enough for them,

868
01:00:37.625 --> 01:00:40.000
and because of that
I don’t belong.

869
01:00:40.083 --> 01:00:44.083
My parents had five children.

870
01:00:44.166 --> 01:00:46.750
We went to church.

871
01:00:46.833 --> 01:00:49.791
Quite an orthodox church.

872
01:00:49.875 --> 01:00:52.250
My father worked a lot.

873
01:00:52.333 --> 01:00:55.291
It was very hard to provide
for the family.

874
01:00:55.375 --> 01:00:59.041
We didn’t see him
that much at home.

875
01:00:59.125 --> 01:01:02.833
When I was about 16 years old,
maybe a little bit earlier 14, 15,

876
01:01:02.916 --> 01:01:07.625
I gradually realised something
that, to me, was wrong.

877
01:01:07.708 --> 01:01:11.000
I didn’t fall in love with girls,
as other guys did,

878
01:01:11.083 --> 01:01:14.375
and I started developing feelings
for the guys.

879
01:01:14.458 --> 01:01:19.291
Most relationships were very short.
Only focused on my body not on me.

880
01:01:19.375 --> 01:01:24.791
About 16 years ago now.
I went to a conference.

881
01:01:24.875 --> 01:01:30.250
For the first time, I really
had an encounter with the Lord.

882
01:01:30.333 --> 01:01:35.875
What resonated most with me,

883
01:01:35.958 --> 01:01:40.833
where I’ve found the most courage
to face life again,

884
01:01:40.916 --> 01:01:46.791
was the ‘man’s journey’
that I embarked on,

885
01:01:46.875 --> 01:01:52.000
where I realised that I am
a man who has worth.

886
01:01:52.083 --> 01:01:56.916
What I experienced was that
when I understood this,

887
01:01:57.000 --> 01:01:59.583
and internalised it,

888
01:01:59.666 --> 01:02:04.583
suddenly my severe depression
and suicidal thoughts went away.

889
01:02:04.666 --> 01:02:07.000
These had been with me
for decades.

890
01:02:07.083 --> 01:02:11.458
When I came back from
the conference, I quit my job.

891
01:02:11.541 --> 01:02:15.958
I went to the counselling school
with Youth With A Mission.

892
01:02:18.541 --> 01:02:21.708
When I did the addictive
behaviour counselling school,

893
01:02:21.791 --> 01:02:26.458
I came to realise so many issues
that were not right in my life.

894
01:02:26.541 --> 01:02:29.750
As I started dealing
with those issues,

895
01:02:29.833 --> 01:02:32.291
and found healing
in those issues,

896
01:02:32.375 --> 01:02:37.541
the need for the sexual encounters
and pressure to ever go back into that,

897
01:02:37.625 --> 01:02:41.875
really disappeared.

898
01:02:41.958 --> 01:02:48.833
For some years
I really didn’t have any desire.

899
01:02:48.916 --> 01:02:51.041
No strong desires towards guys,

900
01:02:51.125 --> 01:02:54.916
but I didn’t yet know
how to fall in love with a girl.

901
01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:59.875
It was only some years later,
as I started growing more and more,

902
01:02:59.958 --> 01:03:03.166
and just living out
who I really was,

903
01:03:03.250 --> 01:03:06.375
that I came also to realise that
I’m not just a homosexual.

904
01:03:06.458 --> 01:03:11.125
I am actually a human being,
and sexuality is just a part of that.

905
01:03:11.208 --> 01:03:13.791
I started growing
in all the other aspects.

906
01:03:13.875 --> 01:03:17.500
A couple of years later, I suddenly got
‘butterflies in my stomach’.

907
01:03:17.583 --> 01:03:21.125
There was a woman!
It was in Nigeria.

908
01:03:21.208 --> 01:03:24.958
I did not marry that woman.

909
01:03:25.041 --> 01:03:29.625
Relationships do not always match.

910
01:03:29.708 --> 01:03:34.083
But then about two years later
I got to know my wife.

911
01:03:34.166 --> 01:03:36.416
We started a relationship
and got married.

912
01:03:36.500 --> 01:03:39.583
For me, finding healing
in many aspects of my life,

913
01:03:39.666 --> 01:03:44.000
and in the end even receiving
a healing in my sexuality,

914
01:03:44.083 --> 01:03:46.291
was just like a big gift.

915
01:03:46.375 --> 01:03:49.916
For me the biggest crown,
after my marriage,

916
01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:52.416
after receiving my wife
and getting married,

917
01:03:52.500 --> 01:03:53.958
was to receive children.

918
01:03:54.041 --> 01:03:58.250
Towards the end of my 20s,
I realised

919
01:03:58.333 --> 01:04:02.291
that I had certain compulsive behaviours
and patterns, in my life.

920
01:04:02.375 --> 01:04:07.833
It got to a key point where they
interfered with my ability to function.

921
01:04:07.916 --> 01:04:13.291
I started to find ways to control

922
01:04:13.375 --> 01:04:15.875
or find a solution to these problems,

923
01:04:15.958 --> 01:04:21.625
so that I could have peace and live
a relatively happy and normal life.

924
01:04:21.708 --> 01:04:24.333
Because those behaviours,

925
01:04:24.416 --> 01:04:28.958
including alcohol
and my sexual behaviour,

926
01:04:29.041 --> 01:04:32.541
were preventing me
from finding any peace,

927
01:04:32.625 --> 01:04:35.625
or from being happy, or from
even being able to function

928
01:04:35.708 --> 01:04:38.500
in terms of making
a living supporting myself.

929
01:04:38.583 --> 01:04:41.708
My name is Marcel, I’m 29.

930
01:04:41.791 --> 01:04:45.250
I work as a social worker

931
01:04:45.333 --> 01:04:51.166
and I’ve been working
with homosexuality and change

932
01:04:51.250 --> 01:04:54.458
since the age of 21.

933
01:04:54.541 --> 01:04:58.541
For the past eight years.

934
01:04:58.625 --> 01:05:04.291
I myself was mentored on the issue
of homosexuality and change

935
01:05:04.375 --> 01:05:07.083
for six or seven years.

936
01:05:07.166 --> 01:05:14.125
So what is motivating you
to seek solutions

937
01:05:14.208 --> 01:05:20.166
around the conflict that you experience
in the area of sexuality?

938
01:05:20.250 --> 01:05:24.833
Well if I was satisfied and happy,

939
01:05:24.916 --> 01:05:28.250
and had a sense of peace,

940
01:05:28.333 --> 01:05:30.416
then I wouldn’t be on this journey.

941
01:05:30.500 --> 01:05:33.625
I came to the realisation

942
01:05:33.708 --> 01:05:39.166
that I need help, really,
for two reasons.

943
01:05:39.250 --> 01:05:42.125
On the one hand I was asking myself
lots of questions

944
01:05:42.208 --> 01:05:46.916
about what these homosexual
feelings really are,

945
01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:49.916
and if I should act on them.

946
01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:53.916
I’d also already partially
decided to act on them.

947
01:05:57.083 --> 01:06:01.041
But then there was a time
where things went very badly for me.

948
01:06:01.125 --> 01:06:05.541
It was always the case in my life

949
01:06:05.625 --> 01:06:11.541
I was in vocational training
at the time,

950
01:06:11.625 --> 01:06:18.416
that I never had any contact with
other people, colleagues or trainees.

951
01:06:18.500 --> 01:06:20.708
and I was always completely alone,

952
01:06:20.791 --> 01:06:23.916
and things got worse for me
as a result.

953
01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:28.833
Things were going badly for me,
and I thought about suicide.

954
01:06:28.916 --> 01:06:34.541
At that time I heard
about ‘wüstenstrom’.

955
01:06:34.625 --> 01:06:39.208
I contacted them and that’s how
I then started the process.

956
01:06:39.291 --> 01:06:45.333
I’ve learnt that the way
that I have behaved in my life,

957
01:06:45.416 --> 01:06:49.166
in the past more so,
perhaps slightly less so now,

958
01:06:49.250 --> 01:06:54.583
has been driven by self-seeking.

959
01:06:54.666 --> 01:07:00.750
A lot of my problems came out of
the fact that I was very self-centred,

960
01:07:00.833 --> 01:07:04.166
and I still can be sometimes.

961
01:07:04.250 --> 01:07:09.333
I always thought of myself first
and I didn’t think enough about others.

962
01:07:09.416 --> 01:07:14.833
I learnt that in my successful attempts

963
01:07:14.916 --> 01:07:20.583
to overcome addiction to alcohol
and other things.

964
01:07:20.666 --> 01:07:23.041
I found a spiritual solution,

965
01:07:23.125 --> 01:07:29.333
which involves relying on
some power greater than myself,

966
01:07:29.416 --> 01:07:32.958
which means that I no longer need
to reach out

967
01:07:33.041 --> 01:07:35.875
to those destructive behaviours.

968
01:07:35.958 --> 01:07:39.500
I now know why
I have these feelings.

969
01:07:39.583 --> 01:07:45.083
At a very early age,
at three or four years old,

970
01:07:45.166 --> 01:07:48.541
I was physically humiliated
by my mother.

971
01:07:48.625 --> 01:07:53.250
Yes, my mother shamed me
physically,

972
01:07:53.333 --> 01:07:56.333
beat me when I was naked
in front of my sister;

973
01:07:56.416 --> 01:08:03.208
so two women
shamed my male body.

974
01:08:03.291 --> 01:08:08.833
Also, by their aggression,

975
01:08:08.916 --> 01:08:13.875
and telling me what I wasn’t allowed
to do; a lot was forbidden,

976
01:08:13.958 --> 01:08:16.833
I was very shamed by that,

977
01:08:16.916 --> 01:08:19.916
so I developed the idea

978
01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:22.541
that I’m not allowed
to have any needs at all.

979
01:08:22.625 --> 01:08:27.250
A huge part of the progress that I
believe I’ve been able to make,

980
01:08:27.333 --> 01:08:32.833
has been in cultivating
true relationships,

981
01:08:32.916 --> 01:08:37.166
in the first instance
with people around me.

982
01:08:37.250 --> 01:08:41.625
What helped me at ‘wüstenstrom’

983
01:08:41.708 --> 01:08:48.166
was, firstly, that there was someone
there who understands me.

984
01:08:48.250 --> 01:08:54.541
Someone who also has
homosexual feelings himself,

985
01:08:54.625 --> 01:08:57.750
and is also on the same path.

986
01:08:57.833 --> 01:09:02.458
Someone who accepted me
and who I could talk to from the start.

987
01:09:02.541 --> 01:09:08.000
What helped me
was that I was able to understand

988
01:09:08.083 --> 01:09:12.750
why I was so afraid of other people,

989
01:09:12.833 --> 01:09:17.250
why I feel ashamed
when I’m in a group,

990
01:09:17.333 --> 01:09:19.291
especially in a group of other guys.

991
01:09:19.375 --> 01:09:22.500
The physical humiliation did stop
when I was 8,

992
01:09:22.583 --> 01:09:27.333
but the shame had become
reinforced within me.

993
01:09:27.416 --> 01:09:31.583
When I started puberty
at age 13 or 14,

994
01:09:31.666 --> 01:09:36.208
I began to look at other boys,

995
01:09:36.291 --> 01:09:42.375
and to imagine that if I had
that body

996
01:09:42.458 --> 01:09:45.000
then I wouldn’t feel ashamed any more.

997
01:09:45.083 --> 01:09:47.791
That then developed further.

998
01:09:47.875 --> 01:09:50.833
When I turned 17, 18 and 19,

999
01:09:50.916 --> 01:09:53.875
I sought out sexual contact,

1000
01:09:53.958 --> 01:09:58.625
either pornography or sexual contact.

1001
01:09:58.708 --> 01:10:02.875
I even had a boyfriend
for a few months.

1002
01:10:02.958 --> 01:10:06.000
During that time I always wanted
to be close to him,

1003
01:10:06.083 --> 01:10:08.000
and to the other boys,

1004
01:10:08.083 --> 01:10:14.500
because, as I now know, I imagined

1005
01:10:14.583 --> 01:10:20.208
that if I was close to him, then I could
forget my shame for a brief moment.

1006
01:10:20.291 --> 01:10:26.416
Today I now know what I’m really looking
for from other boys.

1007
01:10:26.500 --> 01:10:33.208
Because of that, I don’t want
a homosexual relationship.

1008
01:10:33.291 --> 01:10:36.875
Rather, I seek authentic contact
with other men,

1009
01:10:36.958 --> 01:10:41.000
men who I can then tell how I really
feel, and what I really want from them.

1010
01:10:41.083 --> 01:10:43.375
My name’s John Greaves.

1011
01:10:43.458 --> 01:10:45.333
I grew up in England,

1012
01:10:45.416 --> 01:10:47.916
and I’ve been a teacher
for the last few years.

1013
01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:50.208
The story of my life:

1014
01:10:50.291 --> 01:10:53.625
I was brought up
in a happy family,

1015
01:10:53.708 --> 01:10:58.458
mother, father, three siblings.

1016
01:10:58.541 --> 01:11:03.791
The only difficult side
was my relationship with my father.

1017
01:11:03.875 --> 01:11:07.125
The relationship with my mother
was good, probably too good.

1018
01:11:07.208 --> 01:11:10.833
I think I identified greatly
with my mother,

1019
01:11:10.916 --> 01:11:16.541
and could never work out
how to connect with my father.

1020
01:11:16.625 --> 01:11:21.291
So when I came to puberty,
when I became a teenager,

1021
01:11:21.375 --> 01:11:24.250
when sexuality started,

1022
01:11:24.333 --> 01:11:26.750
it never developed in the standard way.

1023
01:11:26.833 --> 01:11:30.041
So I had same sex attraction
from a very early age.

1024
01:11:30.125 --> 01:11:35.458
Looking back, I was trying to connect
with my father and never did.

1025
01:11:35.541 --> 01:11:38.166
This led me off
in the wrong direction.

1026
01:11:38.250 --> 01:11:40.583
When I became a Christian,

1027
01:11:40.666 --> 01:11:45.000
I already knew that my emotions,
and my sexuality,

1028
01:11:45.083 --> 01:11:46.875
did not fit
what God was saying.

1029
01:11:46.958 --> 01:11:49.666
I knew that God had
a plan for men and women,

1030
01:11:49.750 --> 01:11:54.500
for a man and one woman
to have a sexual relationship.

1031
01:11:54.583 --> 01:11:58.083
What I was feeling didn’t fit with that.
So I had this problem.

1032
01:11:58.166 --> 01:12:03.750
In my 20s I talked about this problem
with various people.

1033
01:12:03.833 --> 01:12:07.041
I had supportive input
from friends,

1034
01:12:07.125 --> 01:12:12.875
but still felt the same and didn’t know
how to connect with a girl.

1035
01:12:12.958 --> 01:12:15.625
When I got to 28, a friend said

1036
01:12:15.708 --> 01:12:21.500
“Could you believe for a point in the
future, where you could be married?”

1037
01:12:21.583 --> 01:12:25.458
And the Lord gave me faith
at that point.

1038
01:12:25.541 --> 01:12:27.291
I prayed about it, and I thought,

1039
01:12:27.375 --> 01:12:31.375
“I could think that in two years’ time
I could get married.”

1040
01:12:31.458 --> 01:12:36.000
It was about two or three years later
I met my wife Lindsay,

1041
01:12:36.083 --> 01:12:37.291
my future wife!

1042
01:12:37.375 --> 01:12:39.875
I was immediately attracted to her,

1043
01:12:39.958 --> 01:12:42.666
and this was quite a new experience.

1044
01:12:42.750 --> 01:12:47.625
It wasn’t long before we discovered

1045
01:12:47.708 --> 01:12:50.250
that we both had same-sex attraction.

1046
01:12:50.333 --> 01:12:54.875
That was an amazing plan of the Lord
that we could understand each other

1047
01:12:54.958 --> 01:12:58.958
and pray for each other
and support each other.

1048
01:12:59.041 --> 01:13:03.166
A year later we got married.

1049
01:13:03.250 --> 01:13:05.416
Very much in love,
we got married.

1050
01:13:05.500 --> 01:13:07.208
This was all a new experience.

1051
01:13:07.291 --> 01:13:10.041
It didn’t mean my same-sex
attraction disappeared.

1052
01:13:10.125 --> 01:13:14.333
But we were still able to support
each other, pray through things.

1053
01:13:14.416 --> 01:13:16.250
We brought up five children.

1054
01:13:16.333 --> 01:13:19.541
We’ve been happily married
for 27 years now.

1055
01:13:19.625 --> 01:13:25.666
Marriage to me
is a God given completeness.

1056
01:13:28.916 --> 01:13:33.000
It’s security.

1057
01:13:33.083 --> 01:13:36.500
It’s a friendship, deep friendship,

1058
01:13:36.583 --> 01:13:39.500
for us it’s a very deep friendship.

1059
01:13:39.583 --> 01:13:41.000
It's security.

1060
01:13:41.083 --> 01:13:46.083
A stable place,

1061
01:13:46.166 --> 01:13:53.125
where we can work out our relationship
with God and with our children.

1062
01:13:53.208 --> 01:13:56.500
Marriage is an amazing privilege.

1063
01:13:56.583 --> 01:13:59.708
It’s the building block God has given,
I believe for life,

1064
01:13:59.791 --> 01:14:03.750
for men and women,
for life on earth.

1065
01:14:03.833 --> 01:14:07.416
At the end of time, there will be
the marriage feast of the lamb.

1066
01:14:07.500 --> 01:14:11.041
We have this great privilege
of entering into a shadow of that,

1067
01:14:11.125 --> 01:14:13.583
and have a taste of how
that’s going to be,

1068
01:14:13.666 --> 01:14:15.500
in human marriage now.

1069
01:14:15.583 --> 01:14:18.291
My name is Øivind Svendsen,

1070
01:14:18.375 --> 01:14:20.750
I'm 60 years old, and I come from Oslo.

1071
01:14:20.833 --> 01:14:25.416
Though I know
that I've not reached the goal,

1072
01:14:25.500 --> 01:14:32.500
e.g. that I'd dare
to marry a woman,

1073
01:14:34.291 --> 01:14:38.083
I know that I want to keep
walking this path.

1074
01:14:38.166 --> 01:14:42.875
With hindsight, when you look back
with all that you have experienced,

1075
01:14:42.958 --> 01:14:49.500
do you have any insight into why things
went in this direction for you?

1076
01:14:49.583 --> 01:14:55.083
I found that my relationship
with my father

1077
01:14:55.166 --> 01:14:58.333
was not shaped by closeness,

1078
01:14:58.416 --> 01:15:02.500
and by the confirmation that
I needed from a male figure.

1079
01:15:02.583 --> 01:15:07.166
I felt that what I did
was never good enough,

1080
01:15:07.250 --> 01:15:12.875
and Dad was quick to tell me
if anything negative happened.

1081
01:15:12.958 --> 01:15:16.375
He never affirmed me, as I remember it,

1082
01:15:16.458 --> 01:15:20.750
as a boy and young man.

1083
01:15:20.833 --> 01:15:25.791
Critics of people
who leave homosexuality,

1084
01:15:25.875 --> 01:15:31.583
say that we stereotype
this absent father

1085
01:15:31.666 --> 01:15:34.166
and domineering mother,

1086
01:15:34.250 --> 01:15:36.291
which is what you have just said.

1087
01:15:36.375 --> 01:15:38.166
What is your response to that?

1088
01:15:38.250 --> 01:15:42.333
My response is that

1089
01:15:42.416 --> 01:15:47.500
in my case
it is correct.

1090
01:15:47.583 --> 01:15:51.708
But I also came to see
that other factors exist too

1091
01:15:51.791 --> 01:15:55.916
as my journey continued.

1092
01:15:56.000 --> 01:15:59.791
The help I got was that I started to
realize

1093
01:15:59.875 --> 01:16:03.958
where the root
of these difficult feelings might be

1094
01:16:04.041 --> 01:16:06.583
as I already stated,

1095
01:16:06.666 --> 01:16:11.583
especially within the relationship
to my own father.

1096
01:16:11.666 --> 01:16:15.500
And then I continued with therapy,

1097
01:16:15.583 --> 01:16:19.458
where I worked through
this specific relationship.

1098
01:16:19.541 --> 01:16:25.833
What I did in relation to my Dad,
was that I dared to speak the truth.

1099
01:16:25.916 --> 01:16:31.958
And I dared to realize that even
though Dad did the best he could,

1100
01:16:32.041 --> 01:16:34.208
it just wasn't good enough.

1101
01:16:34.291 --> 01:16:39.208
What I would say to those seeking help,

1102
01:16:39.291 --> 01:16:41.333
is that it is worth it,

1103
01:16:41.416 --> 01:16:48.166
it is worth taking another path than
the one which is mainstream today.

1104
01:16:48.250 --> 01:16:51.458
John , you’ve been on a journey
for some years now.

1105
01:16:51.541 --> 01:16:55.458
Can you briefly tell us
about that story?

1106
01:16:55.541 --> 01:16:58.458
When I was young,

1107
01:16:58.541 --> 01:17:01.833
I coveted the female body.

1108
01:17:01.916 --> 01:17:05.083
I wanted to be female,
I wanted to look like a woman.

1109
01:17:05.166 --> 01:17:06.833
I wanted to feel like a woman,

1110
01:17:06.916 --> 01:17:09.625
and that was expressed a few times
in my childhood.

1111
01:17:09.708 --> 01:17:13.625
As a teenager,

1112
01:17:13.708 --> 01:17:20.291
I experienced men looking at me,

1113
01:17:20.375 --> 01:17:23.958
and telling me that I wasn’t a man,
that I wasn’t masculine enough.

1114
01:17:24.041 --> 01:17:27.916
That I didn’t look like a man.
That I didn’t have the broad shoulders.

1115
01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:30.125
This carried on
into my adulthood,

1116
01:17:30.208 --> 01:17:33.625
and the frustration
of feeling not like a man

1117
01:17:33.708 --> 01:17:36.583
led me down a strange path.

1118
01:17:36.666 --> 01:17:40.125
I thought that I was miserable as a man,

1119
01:17:40.208 --> 01:17:43.833
and if I lived as a woman,
perhaps things would change.

1120
01:17:43.916 --> 01:17:48.916
So I became
a pre-op transsexual woman.

1121
01:17:49.000 --> 01:17:52.500
I was born a boy and I lived as a woman
for a number of years.

1122
01:17:52.583 --> 01:17:57.625
I had a friend who was also
a transsexual woman.

1123
01:17:57.708 --> 01:18:01.125
The day before his re-assignment
surgery, he had a breakdown,

1124
01:18:01.208 --> 01:18:03.875
and realised that
he wanted to be a man.

1125
01:18:03.958 --> 01:18:07.916
When I heard that story I was beginning
to look at my own life.

1126
01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:12.666
Before I even heard about my friend,

1127
01:18:12.750 --> 01:18:15.291
I was constantly praying to God

1128
01:18:15.375 --> 01:18:18.958
and saying I don’t know what to do,
I’m doing what I think is right,

1129
01:18:19.041 --> 01:18:22.708
but I have no idea
if it is right for me.

1130
01:18:22.791 --> 01:18:26.875
When I heard this story about my friend,
who transitioned back to being male,

1131
01:18:26.958 --> 01:18:32.125
I began to look at my own life,
and I realised that it wasn’t for me.

1132
01:18:32.208 --> 01:18:34.291
I couldn’t do it anymore.

1133
01:18:34.375 --> 01:18:36.875
I felt like an empty man.

1134
01:18:36.958 --> 01:18:39.125
It had nothing to do
with being a woman,

1135
01:18:39.208 --> 01:18:42.958
and it had everything to do with
the fact that I didn’t feel masculine.

1136
01:18:43.041 --> 01:18:49.500
I realised that becoming a female
in society wasn’t right for me.

1137
01:18:49.583 --> 01:18:52.083
People who seek help in this area,

1138
01:18:52.166 --> 01:18:57.833
will find it very difficult
to find genuine help.

1139
01:18:57.916 --> 01:19:03.291
On the one hand
there are people who say to you,

1140
01:19:03.375 --> 01:19:07.000
‘that’s just the way it is, accept it.’

1141
01:19:07.083 --> 01:19:10.875
‘You were born that way, you were
created that way, just act on it’.

1142
01:19:10.958 --> 01:19:15.416
And then there are people who say,

1143
01:19:15.500 --> 01:19:18.416
‘Yes, I can help you

1144
01:19:18.500 --> 01:19:22.625
to suppress these homosexual feelings,
to get rid of them’.

1145
01:19:22.708 --> 01:19:25.833
In Christian circles there are
also people who say to you,

1146
01:19:25.916 --> 01:19:30.833
‘I can help you by praying it away;
then everything will be resolved’.

1147
01:19:30.916 --> 01:19:35.375
Or who simply don’t understand
what it’s about at all and say,

1148
01:19:35.458 --> 01:19:38.583
‘it’s a sin, you’ve acknowledged that.
Just stop it’.

1149
01:19:38.666 --> 01:19:40.500
But real help,

1150
01:19:40.583 --> 01:19:45.416
where someone is really there
in word and deed,

1151
01:19:45.500 --> 01:19:48.625
when someone accepts
and listens to you,

1152
01:19:48.708 --> 01:19:53.166
and takes your problems and difficulties
seriously,

1153
01:19:53.250 --> 01:19:59.541
and sees that it’s just not that easy,

1154
01:19:59.625 --> 01:20:04.458
that’s very rare, and people
who offer it are forcibly silenced

1155
01:20:04.541 --> 01:20:06.625
both by the church and by politicians.

1156
01:20:06.708 --> 01:20:09.500
I’ll just try and explain it like this:

1157
01:20:09.583 --> 01:20:14.375
if a man who feels
rejected by another man…

1158
01:20:14.458 --> 01:20:21.000
when he enters a room, he expects
rejection from the other man.

1159
01:20:21.083 --> 01:20:26.083
And in this rejection
and this expectation,

1160
01:20:26.166 --> 01:20:30.000
he experiences fear and stress.

1161
01:20:30.083 --> 01:20:35.625
And simultaneously
he perceives himself as inferior,

1162
01:20:35.708 --> 01:20:40.541
or believes he cannot assert himself
in the face of this man.

1163
01:20:40.625 --> 01:20:43.541
And this is what we work on in therapy.

1164
01:20:43.625 --> 01:20:47.541
I’m Pascal Müller and I’m 23 years old

1165
01:20:47.625 --> 01:20:49.291
My name is Stefan Schmidt.

1166
01:20:49.375 --> 01:20:51.958
For the past 11 and a half years,

1167
01:20:52.041 --> 01:20:56.208
I’ve been working at a Christian
counselling centre near Stuttgart.

1168
01:20:56.291 --> 01:20:58.625
There, we specifically counsel people

1169
01:20:58.708 --> 01:21:02.458
who struggle with their sexuality,
with their identity as men or women,

1170
01:21:02.541 --> 01:21:05.375
who have problems
and who are seeking help.

1171
01:21:05.458 --> 01:21:08.833
When a man feels rejected
by another man,

1172
01:21:08.916 --> 01:21:15.208
sexuality usually fulfils the role
of an internal drama.

1173
01:21:15.291 --> 01:21:17.875
In this internal drama,

1174
01:21:17.958 --> 01:21:22.416
the man who initially feels rejected
and inferior

1175
01:21:22.500 --> 01:21:25.041
can immediately play
a meaningful role,

1176
01:21:25.125 --> 01:21:29.666
in which the other man
is now a great friend, embraces him,

1177
01:21:29.750 --> 01:21:32.291
and masculinity.

1178
01:21:32.375 --> 01:21:35.208
Or a role in which perhaps he imagines

1179
01:21:35.291 --> 01:21:37.958
he has the body of a completely
different man,

1180
01:21:38.041 --> 01:21:40.791
and so acquire a better masculinity.

1181
01:21:40.875 --> 01:21:45.916
For me it was a problem
I’d say primarily

1182
01:21:46.000 --> 01:21:52.208
because I noticed that something
was at odds within me.

1183
01:21:52.291 --> 01:21:58.750
If for a moment
I felt attracted to a boy,

1184
01:21:58.833 --> 01:22:05.666
I realised that there was no peace
or quiet in that,

1185
01:22:05.750 --> 01:22:08.791
but that something
was concealed behind it.

1186
01:22:08.875 --> 01:22:12.791
At first I didn’t actively seek help

1187
01:22:12.875 --> 01:22:17.000
for what I experienced as a problem,

1188
01:22:17.083 --> 01:22:22.291
but instead hid myself away
because of it.

1189
01:22:22.375 --> 01:22:29.375
What happened
then was that I had friends

1190
01:22:29.458 --> 01:22:32.791
who were like fathers to me.

1191
01:22:32.875 --> 01:22:36.250
They may not have known
about my problems,

1192
01:22:36.333 --> 01:22:42.458
but they did give me a lot of acceptance
and affirmation.

1193
01:22:42.541 --> 01:22:46.291
I knew that I belonged

1194
01:22:46.375 --> 01:22:49.583
and the question wasn’t always there
in my mind,

1195
01:22:49.666 --> 01:22:53.041
‘do I belong here or not,
do they accept me?’

1196
01:22:53.125 --> 01:22:56.000
The key element of reparative therapy,

1197
01:22:56.083 --> 01:23:01.708
is that a trauma occurred,
in which the boy feels inferior,

1198
01:23:01.791 --> 01:23:06.458
not worthy of being connected to men.

1199
01:23:06.541 --> 01:23:10.458
that came from father
or brother or peers.

1200
01:23:10.541 --> 01:23:13.291
As a result he desires to be
close to men,

1201
01:23:13.375 --> 01:23:15.833
but he’s afraid to be close to men.

1202
01:23:15.916 --> 01:23:22.458
That tension is resolved in fantasy,
through sex.

1203
01:23:22.541 --> 01:23:25.166
That’s the theory.

1204
01:23:25.250 --> 01:23:28.250
I listened to these men
and tried to be supportive.

1205
01:23:28.333 --> 01:23:31.208
But I began to hear a pattern.

1206
01:23:31.291 --> 01:23:34.958
They had a deep resentment
toward their mother,

1207
01:23:35.041 --> 01:23:38.083
even though they were very close
to their mothers,

1208
01:23:38.166 --> 01:23:40.916
their mothers drove them crazy.

1209
01:23:41.000 --> 01:23:46.583
And they had a deep disappointment
in their father,

1210
01:23:46.666 --> 01:23:49.458
who showed no particular interest in
them.

1211
01:23:49.541 --> 01:23:54.791
And there was bullying.

1212
01:23:54.875 --> 01:23:58.416
As Freud said,
if a homosexual has an older brother,

1213
01:23:58.500 --> 01:24:00.625
it’s a feared hostile relationship.

1214
01:24:00.708 --> 01:24:02.833
I’ve never seen an exception to that.

1215
01:24:02.916 --> 01:24:05.625
In this inner drama,

1216
01:24:05.708 --> 01:24:08.625
sexuality plays a big role.

1217
01:24:08.708 --> 01:24:14.916
But suppose we change these
relationships in reality.

1218
01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:19.708
Now when that man meets a man,
he feels accepted,

1219
01:24:19.791 --> 01:24:22.208
and can also experience
acceptance from him.

1220
01:24:22.291 --> 01:24:26.000
Then the substance of his sexuality
automatically changes.

1221
01:24:26.083 --> 01:24:30.833
The concept behind this
is actually the concept of contact,

1222
01:24:30.916 --> 01:24:33.833
of psychological connection.

1223
01:24:33.916 --> 01:24:37.041
What this means is that:

1224
01:24:37.125 --> 01:24:41.208
if people don’t believe
they have their own identity,

1225
01:24:41.291 --> 01:24:44.791
then they either live enmeshed
with other people

1226
01:24:44.875 --> 01:24:48.333
and expect other people to give them
what they lack

1227
01:24:48.416 --> 01:24:53.375
or else they fall apart
in their presence,

1228
01:24:53.458 --> 01:24:56.083
and so want someone
who will save them.

1229
01:24:56.166 --> 01:24:58.416
We change this concept

1230
01:24:58.500 --> 01:25:01.125
when we give the men the ability to say,

1231
01:25:01.208 --> 01:25:03.458
I have maleness myself,

1232
01:25:03.541 --> 01:25:06.708
and I can share
and experience it with others.

1233
01:25:06.791 --> 01:25:09.250
Because of that,
I can remain true to myself,

1234
01:25:09.333 --> 01:25:11.083
and be at peace within myself.

1235
01:25:11.166 --> 01:25:17.958
And then this inner trauma,
which drives my sexuality, has gone.

1236
01:25:18.041 --> 01:25:20.833
A big part of the therapy
is to encourage our clients

1237
01:25:20.916 --> 01:25:23.750
to make emotional connections
with straight men

1238
01:25:23.833 --> 01:25:26.791
and they are afraid to do so.

1239
01:25:26.875 --> 01:25:32.208
That should tell you that there is
something wrong with the gay psychology,

1240
01:25:32.291 --> 01:25:34.541
because they’re
afraid of men.

1241
01:25:34.625 --> 01:25:38.166
Paradoxically, they are attracted
to them, but afraid of them!

1242
01:25:38.250 --> 01:25:45.000
So a lot of the therapy is teaching them
to overcome their anticipatory shame,

1243
01:25:45.083 --> 01:25:50.208
so they can make an emotional
bonding with men.

1244
01:25:50.291 --> 01:25:53.125
For example by going to a gym,
finding a male mentor,

1245
01:25:53.208 --> 01:25:55.750
using a therapeutic relationship,
whatever.

1246
01:25:55.833 --> 01:26:00.166
My goal, now that I feel connected
to men,

1247
01:26:00.250 --> 01:26:03.958
and also now that I know I’m a man,

1248
01:26:04.041 --> 01:26:06.291
is to feel more secure in that.

1249
01:26:09.666 --> 01:26:13.625
And when the question comes up,

1250
01:26:13.708 --> 01:26:18.416
to have it affirmed
again and again for me.

1251
01:26:18.500 --> 01:26:23.916
And to get this affirmation
from other men

1252
01:26:24.000 --> 01:26:26.958
when I need it,

1253
01:26:27.041 --> 01:26:31.791
and not by looking through
alternative means,

1254
01:26:31.875 --> 01:26:35.666
but by approaching people
and asking the question

1255
01:26:35.750 --> 01:26:38.125
and then knowing:
I can trust these people.

1256
01:26:38.208 --> 01:26:45.083
A typical characteristic
of the men that I work with

1257
01:26:45.166 --> 01:26:51.250
with homosexual feelings,

1258
01:26:51.333 --> 01:26:57.833
is that they have difficulties

1259
01:26:57.916 --> 01:27:00.583
in authentically discerning feelings,

1260
01:27:00.666 --> 01:27:03.291
and also in authentically
expressing feelings.

1261
01:27:03.375 --> 01:27:08.833
That is why they have great difficulty
entering into relationships

1262
01:27:08.916 --> 01:27:14.125
where they actually
experience attachment,

1263
01:27:14.208 --> 01:27:18.125
where they experience feelings being
dealt with, where they can be loved,

1264
01:27:18.208 --> 01:27:20.708
and where they can
also love other,

1265
01:27:20.791 --> 01:27:24.750
many describe having great difficulty
doing this.

1266
01:27:24.833 --> 01:27:26.916
My name is Timo,

1267
01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:32.666
and I’ve been on a journey for a while
to better understand my identity,

1268
01:27:32.750 --> 01:27:39.583
to understand my maleness,
to understand myself.

1269
01:27:42.166 --> 01:27:45.833
This process that I’ve started,

1270
01:27:45.916 --> 01:27:51.333
began for me
when I sought help,

1271
01:27:51.416 --> 01:27:55.875
because I found myself struggling
with homosexual feelings.

1272
01:27:55.958 --> 01:28:01.375
I’d suppressed them for a long time,
and just dealt with them inside of me.

1273
01:28:01.458 --> 01:28:04.666
I couldn’t sort out
these feelings.

1274
01:28:04.750 --> 01:28:07.208
I didn’t know who I was,
what it meant,

1275
01:28:07.291 --> 01:28:09.916
and I was asking myself,
‘what do I want?’,

1276
01:28:10.000 --> 01:28:12.541
‘what is my sexuality,
my masculinity?’.

1277
01:28:12.625 --> 01:28:14.875
When men come to us,

1278
01:28:14.958 --> 01:28:17.291
we ask them quite
clearly and plainly

1279
01:28:17.375 --> 01:28:22.500
whether they have also looked at other,
affirmative, forms of therapy.

1280
01:28:22.583 --> 01:28:26.416
Then we ask them quite clearly

1281
01:28:26.500 --> 01:28:31.625
if their homosexuality
really constitutes a conflict for them.

1282
01:28:31.708 --> 01:28:35.833
We explain that we can only treat

1283
01:28:35.916 --> 01:28:40.583
what these men discover
to be an inner conflict.

1284
01:28:40.666 --> 01:28:43.791
In this way we prevent the man

1285
01:28:43.875 --> 01:28:46.291
from misappropriating any kind of
problem,

1286
01:28:46.375 --> 01:28:48.833
and we preclude
our imposing a problem on him.

1287
01:28:48.916 --> 01:28:52.625
We really want him to discover
for himself, to develop and then say:

1288
01:28:52.708 --> 01:28:55.708
I have a conflict here,
and I want to work on it.

1289
01:28:55.791 --> 01:29:00.208
Even if some people say
homosexuality is OK,

1290
01:29:00.291 --> 01:29:04.083
I don’t experience it
or feel it that way in myself.

1291
01:29:04.166 --> 01:29:06.875
I experience it as a conflict.

1292
01:29:06.958 --> 01:29:09.625
For me, I can’t deal with it.

1293
01:29:09.708 --> 01:29:13.583
I notice people asking these questions
more and more in many areas,

1294
01:29:13.666 --> 01:29:19.583
even outside the issue of homosexuality,

1295
01:29:19.666 --> 01:29:23.250
‘Is that me?’ ‘Can I be that way?’

1296
01:29:23.333 --> 01:29:25.333
That’s my basic problem

1297
01:29:25.416 --> 01:29:28.750
that I often don’t know who I am,
or who I’m meant to be.

1298
01:29:28.833 --> 01:29:31.958
I absolutely do have the feeling

1299
01:29:32.041 --> 01:29:35.333
that I’ve achieved a lot in the process
I’m going through.

1300
01:29:35.416 --> 01:29:38.000
I’m more confident.

1301
01:29:38.083 --> 01:29:40.458
I’ve built relationships

1302
01:29:40.541 --> 01:29:44.583
where I find support and safety,

1303
01:29:44.666 --> 01:29:47.041
which are good for me,

1304
01:29:47.125 --> 01:29:51.916
and I’m learning more and more
to perceive myself as a whole person,

1305
01:29:52.000 --> 01:29:54.916
with my strengths and my weaknesses

1306
01:29:55.000 --> 01:30:00.208
Yes, people often accuse us of having
a judgmental standpoint,

1307
01:30:00.291 --> 01:30:03.625
and that we say from the outset
that homosexuality is something

1308
01:30:03.708 --> 01:30:05.875
that people shouldn’t live out,

1309
01:30:05.958 --> 01:30:12.875
and that we force or persuade people
to work on their sexual orientation.

1310
01:30:12.958 --> 01:30:16.166
Of course that is not my stance at all,

1311
01:30:16.250 --> 01:30:20.083
nor is it the stance
of the people I work with.

1312
01:30:20.166 --> 01:30:23.416
Rather, we take particular care

1313
01:30:23.500 --> 01:30:30.416
to let people decide quite
independently, for themselves…

1314
01:30:30.500 --> 01:30:32.958
so they’re the ones who decide for
themselves

1315
01:30:33.041 --> 01:30:35.666
what they actually want
to change in their lives,

1316
01:30:35.750 --> 01:30:36.958
and what to work on.

1317
01:30:37.041 --> 01:30:39.375
I see this first-hand.

1318
01:30:39.458 --> 01:30:42.666
Men whose homosexual feelings

1319
01:30:42.750 --> 01:30:46.291
are based on a severe case
of gender identity inferiority.

1320
01:30:46.375 --> 01:30:49.458
They project that need outward,

1321
01:30:49.541 --> 01:30:56.166
and see only the beauty and wholeness
of maleness in another man’s body.

1322
01:30:56.250 --> 01:30:58.166
Then that becomes eroticized.

1323
01:30:58.250 --> 01:31:04.000
That is a shame-based statement
that says they are worthless as men,

1324
01:31:04.083 --> 01:31:08.416
that they are stuck
and they will always be stuck,

1325
01:31:08.500 --> 01:31:11.208
and that they are worthless.

1326
01:31:11.291 --> 01:31:14.083
When those messages are relieved,

1327
01:31:14.166 --> 01:31:16.958
there is an authentic moment of grief
and anger,

1328
01:31:17.041 --> 01:31:19.625
that they’ve never faced before,

1329
01:31:19.708 --> 01:31:24.833
that is underneath
those homosexual feelings.

1330
01:31:24.916 --> 01:31:28.333
Then there are actually moments
in my office

1331
01:31:28.416 --> 01:31:31.125
where that
change automatically happens

1332
01:31:31.208 --> 01:31:34.291
because we are dealing
with what is really going on

1333
01:31:34.375 --> 01:31:36.666
underneath the
homosexual attractions.

1334
01:31:36.750 --> 01:31:41.041
The moment of change happens when
they come out of that grief process.

1335
01:31:41.125 --> 01:31:46.208
When they return to who or what they
were erotically attracted to before,

1336
01:31:46.291 --> 01:31:52.000
they have a cathartic experience.

1337
01:31:52.083 --> 01:31:54.833
They say things like,

1338
01:31:54.916 --> 01:31:58.541
“Oh wow David!"

1339
01:31:58.625 --> 01:32:01.000
I had one last week, say to me,

1340
01:32:01.083 --> 01:32:05.625
"This whole manhood thing,

1341
01:32:05.708 --> 01:32:08.583
this is a lot better than sex with men!”

1342
01:32:09.833 --> 01:32:12.958
Those are unsolicited responses,

1343
01:32:13.041 --> 01:32:15.750
so those are moments of actual emotional
change,

1344
01:32:15.833 --> 01:32:17.750
not just behavioural change.

1345
01:32:17.833 --> 01:32:22.083
Sexual pleasure
is a heavy-duty kind of pleasure.

1346
01:32:22.166 --> 01:32:25.666
I know two things when men
spontaneously describe

1347
01:32:25.750 --> 01:32:28.208
these cathartic
moments of change.

1348
01:32:28.291 --> 01:32:32.666
First of all, for them
this issue isn’t inborn,

1349
01:32:32.750 --> 01:32:34.458
and second, it’s changeable.

1350
01:32:34.541 --> 01:32:39.583
I would say we help people

1351
01:32:39.666 --> 01:32:42.250
to understand themselves better,

1352
01:32:42.333 --> 01:32:47.875
to cope with their own feelings
and thoughts,

1353
01:32:47.958 --> 01:32:50.958
and their own way of relating,

1354
01:32:51.041 --> 01:32:53.083
and to better integrate that.

1355
01:32:53.166 --> 01:32:57.416
Perhaps, to better integrate their past
and what they experienced previously.

1356
01:32:57.500 --> 01:33:00.833
And that leads to them

1357
01:33:00.916 --> 01:33:05.708
experiencing a decrease of their
sexual longing for the same sex,

1358
01:33:05.791 --> 01:33:11.000
and they notice they even become open
to finding the opposite sex attractive,

1359
01:33:11.083 --> 01:33:18.083
if they really want to, if it’s really
their goal to get to that place.

1360
01:33:18.166 --> 01:33:21.166
There is a danger
that the Christian church,

1361
01:33:21.250 --> 01:33:27.166
in seeking to contribute
positively to society as it should,

1362
01:33:27.250 --> 01:33:29.125
capitulates to values

1363
01:33:29.208 --> 01:33:34.166
counter to the Jewish heritage
on which the church is built.

1364
01:33:34.250 --> 01:33:37.083
History shows us
that in its own zeal,

1365
01:33:37.166 --> 01:33:39.666
the church has sometimes
betrayed itself,

1366
01:33:39.750 --> 01:33:43.458
and even persecuted
the Jews in a shameless way.

1367
01:33:43.541 --> 01:33:45.291
At the end of this journey,

1368
01:33:45.375 --> 01:33:52.333
we have explored the conflict between
competing ideologies, and world views.

1369
01:33:52.416 --> 01:33:56.875
Where do we now stand as people
conscious of our histories,

1370
01:33:56.958 --> 01:33:58.666
and our destiny?

1371
01:33:58.750 --> 01:34:02.791
I have been a pastor in the Republic
of Ireland for almost 28 years.

1372
01:34:02.875 --> 01:34:06.666
I work with Til Helhet,

1373
01:34:06.750 --> 01:34:09.250
which is an umbrella organisation

1374
01:34:09.333 --> 01:34:13.666
that provides help for people who
struggle with same-sex attractions.

1375
01:34:13.750 --> 01:34:18.416
The family now has been redefined.

1376
01:34:18.500 --> 01:34:20.791
Marriage is not just
a man and a woman now,

1377
01:34:20.875 --> 01:34:23.000
it can be two men or two women.

1378
01:34:23.083 --> 01:34:27.291
I think that will have enormous
complications because it is law.

1379
01:34:27.375 --> 01:34:32.333
This is in conflict
with the scriptures.

1380
01:34:32.416 --> 01:34:37.375
There will be a legislative consequence
to opposing that law.

1381
01:34:37.458 --> 01:34:40.833
I wonder how that is going to be
worked out in the coming days?

1382
01:34:40.916 --> 01:34:43.750
Will churches be allowed to teach

1383
01:34:43.833 --> 01:34:46.500
what they understand to be
the Biblical position?

1384
01:34:46.583 --> 01:34:51.916
Will the State bring pressure to bear
on them to have a wider position?

1385
01:34:52.000 --> 01:34:56.583
Will schools have to change, even
Catholic schools, their ethos?

1386
01:34:56.666 --> 01:35:01.375
They may not immediately,
but I think over a period of time,

1387
01:35:01.458 --> 01:35:04.166
I think this will grow and develop

1388
01:35:04.250 --> 01:35:08.083
and become more dominant,
more entrenched in the Irish society.

1389
01:35:08.166 --> 01:35:13.166
Unlike other social change,

1390
01:35:13.250 --> 01:35:16.875
it never became an issue
of this has to be the dominant position

1391
01:35:16.958 --> 01:35:19.333
and no other position will be tolerated.

1392
01:35:19.416 --> 01:35:23.916
Thousands of years of civilisation
have been overturned.

1393
01:35:24.000 --> 01:35:28.458
Now as if it’s
a normative experience

1394
01:35:28.541 --> 01:35:31.708
but until the last few months,
it wasn’t.

1395
01:35:31.791 --> 01:35:38.000
The energy and dynamo that’s driving
the Yes acceptance,

1396
01:35:38.083 --> 01:35:40.500
is going to make it
very difficult, I think,

1397
01:35:40.583 --> 01:35:44.083
for people who hold
the traditional view.

1398
01:35:44.166 --> 01:35:46.958
Because the traditional view
will not be tolerated.

1399
01:35:47.041 --> 01:35:49.708
I don’t mind that some
hold a view opposite to me,

1400
01:35:49.791 --> 01:35:52.083
as long as I’m allowed
to hold my position.

1401
01:35:52.166 --> 01:35:55.708
But as it presently stands
my position will not be tolerated.

1402
01:35:55.791 --> 01:36:00.541
This new position will be
the driving force in Irish society,

1403
01:36:00.625 --> 01:36:04.250
and I don’t think that is democratic,
or good for the state,

1404
01:36:04.333 --> 01:36:07.041
or good for society
as a whole.

1405
01:36:07.125 --> 01:36:13.333
There are different kinds of causes,

1406
01:36:13.416 --> 01:36:17.375
but it is helpful

1407
01:36:17.458 --> 01:36:22.333
to stand together
and to help each other.

1408
01:36:22.416 --> 01:36:29.416
It is helpful to work
on one’s existential problems.

1409
01:36:29.500 --> 01:36:36.500
The joy of helping people,
who strive existentially,

1410
01:36:36.583 --> 01:36:40.541
is the joy that I have.

1411
01:36:40.625 --> 01:36:47.041
What is common
between the people I have worked with,

1412
01:36:47.125 --> 01:36:52.166
is that there is something in our past,
that there is something in our choices,

1413
01:36:52.250 --> 01:36:59.083
in relation to our parents, in relation
to an assault which might have happened,

1414
01:36:59.166 --> 01:37:05.166
where the individual has taken choices
that shaped him in a bad way.

1415
01:37:05.250 --> 01:37:09.708
And, I have seen that it is possible
to take new choices,

1416
01:37:09.791 --> 01:37:16.625
it might be spiritually,
it might be in relation to others,

1417
01:37:16.708 --> 01:37:20.250
that can change our own attitudes
towards ourselves,

1418
01:37:20.333 --> 01:37:24.958
towards our surroundings,
and towards our relationships.

1419
01:37:25.041 --> 01:37:28.666
It is very dangerous

1420
01:37:28.750 --> 01:37:31.791
for any subject to be treated
from one side only.

1421
01:37:31.875 --> 01:37:35.000
Yet what we find in both the media
and amongst academics,

1422
01:37:35.083 --> 01:37:39.041
is that sexual politics is heard about
only from its promoters.

1423
01:37:39.125 --> 01:37:41.500
All of the scholars that deal with it,

1424
01:37:41.583 --> 01:37:45.208
do so from a standpoint
of enthusiastic promotion.

1425
01:37:45.291 --> 01:37:48.125
The consequences
of this are that:

1426
01:37:48.208 --> 01:37:52.541
there is a narrowing
of permissible opinions

1427
01:37:52.625 --> 01:37:55.750
and viewpoints
on university campuses;

1428
01:37:55.833 --> 01:38:01.708
and that students get
a very narrow view.

1429
01:38:01.791 --> 01:38:05.625
The academic world
is promoting a political ideology.

1430
01:38:05.708 --> 01:38:09.458
It is the job of academic scholars
to treat phenomena

1431
01:38:09.541 --> 01:38:13.583
from a detached, disinterested,
viewpoint,

1432
01:38:13.666 --> 01:38:15.791
a viewpoint as objective
as possible.

1433
01:38:15.875 --> 01:38:20.833
Yet the academic world is not
even pretending to do this.

1434
01:38:20.916 --> 01:38:23.291
Women’s studies departments openly
promote

1435
01:38:23.375 --> 01:38:26.208
both feminist
and homosexual politics,

1436
01:38:26.291 --> 01:38:29.125
without any apology
or attempt to disguise it.

1437
01:38:29.208 --> 01:38:31.333
This is not just in the academic world.

1438
01:38:31.416 --> 01:38:34.333
It’s also increasingly happening
in the legal world.

1439
01:38:34.416 --> 01:38:38.083
It’s becoming legally unacceptable
to express certain opinions,

1440
01:38:38.166 --> 01:38:40.166
in the United Kingdom for example.

1441
01:38:40.250 --> 01:38:42.166
People are threatened with arrest,

1442
01:38:42.250 --> 01:38:45.791
with civil suits,
and in some cases with criminal suits,

1443
01:38:45.875 --> 01:38:48.625
for expressing opinions
that are critical

1444
01:38:48.708 --> 01:38:51.791
of either feminist
or homosexualist politics.

1445
01:38:51.875 --> 01:38:55.416
I remember that one man said to me,

1446
01:38:55.500 --> 01:38:59.916
‘If I had come out as gay,
my family would have supported me.

1447
01:39:00.000 --> 01:39:04.333
But because I chose
the path of change,

1448
01:39:04.416 --> 01:39:07.166
my family does not support me.’

1449
01:39:07.250 --> 01:39:12.041
This is what we see nowadays,
even in churches,

1450
01:39:12.125 --> 01:39:16.750
that people
who seek a path of change,

1451
01:39:16.833 --> 01:39:21.458
often receive little support
from their social environment.

1452
01:39:21.541 --> 01:39:24.791
Ideologies around sexuality change,

1453
01:39:24.875 --> 01:39:27.416
as culture changes and moves on.

1454
01:39:27.500 --> 01:39:31.125
Just as we have seen
religion politicised,

1455
01:39:31.208 --> 01:39:33.916
and we have seen
race politicized,

1456
01:39:34.000 --> 01:39:37.875
so we are now seeing
sexuality being politicized.

1457
01:39:37.958 --> 01:39:43.416
What we are beginning to see now,
is the rise of the transsexual agenda.

1458
01:39:43.500 --> 01:39:49.208
And the transsexual agenda really is
the next step towards pansexuality.

1459
01:39:49.291 --> 01:39:51.666
And the ironic thing is, surely,

1460
01:39:51.750 --> 01:39:55.500
that the Romans knew
all about pansexuality,

1461
01:39:55.583 --> 01:39:58.250
and had invested in those values.

1462
01:39:58.333 --> 01:40:01.291
So here we are, in the 21st century,

1463
01:40:01.375 --> 01:40:07.041
returning to something that the Romans
were very familiar with, 2000 years ago.

1464
01:40:07.125 --> 01:40:09.916
And so what of the Christian church?

1465
01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:13.875
What is the responsibility of pastors,
and teachers,

1466
01:40:13.958 --> 01:40:16.500
who clearly have an
essential role,

1467
01:40:16.583 --> 01:40:19.708
in maintaining time honoured truth

1468
01:40:19.791 --> 01:40:24.083
about the divine plan and template
for human sexuality?

1469
01:40:24.166 --> 01:40:27.875
Pastors are increasingly intimidated
from speaking out

1470
01:40:27.958 --> 01:40:31.166
against sexual politics.

1471
01:40:31.250 --> 01:40:32.833
They do not criticise.

1472
01:40:32.916 --> 01:40:36.833
For many years they have refused
to criticise the feminist agenda.

1473
01:40:36.916 --> 01:40:40.791
Some speak out against the homosexual
agenda, such as same sex marriage,

1474
01:40:40.875 --> 01:40:46.083
but even that is beginning to become
more and more silenced.

1475
01:40:46.166 --> 01:40:50.125
Now, pastors don’t even criticise

1476
01:40:50.208 --> 01:40:55.250
fornication, adultery, divorce.

1477
01:40:55.333 --> 01:40:58.250
These are no-go zones for many pastors.

1478
01:40:58.333 --> 01:41:04.166
When the pastors don’t lead,
in the church or the community,

1479
01:41:04.250 --> 01:41:07.375
then it’s hard for anyone else to do so.

1480
01:41:07.458 --> 01:41:14.416
So I think that the churches’
timidity in this,

1481
01:41:14.500 --> 01:41:16.583
is something
that is very worrying.

1482
01:41:16.666 --> 01:41:19.375
I think Christians
shouldn’t be nervous.

1483
01:41:19.458 --> 01:41:22.791
I think we have a Gospel
that will bear up to scrutiny.

1484
01:41:22.875 --> 01:41:27.541
I think we have a Saviour
that sinners will find attractive.

1485
01:41:27.625 --> 01:41:30.958
I think the fact that we’re all broken,
and we need a Saviour,

1486
01:41:31.041 --> 01:41:34.708
tells us that we’re without hope
without Him.

1487
01:41:34.791 --> 01:41:38.958
Whether you are straight or not,
our sin is always offensive to God.

1488
01:41:39.041 --> 01:41:42.416
If we live in sin,
we cannot go to heaven.

1489
01:41:42.500 --> 01:41:44.041
But there is a remedy.

1490
01:41:44.125 --> 01:41:50.458
The wonder of Christ becoming
a man so that we could be saved.

1491
01:41:50.541 --> 01:41:54.333
Saved from ourselves,
but also saved from the wrath to come.

1492
01:41:54.416 --> 01:41:58.000
This Gospel is for all society,
for all people everywhere,

1493
01:41:58.083 --> 01:42:00.250
no matter what their sexuality is.

1494
01:42:00.333 --> 01:42:03.958
This morning I met a complete stranger

1495
01:42:04.041 --> 01:42:07.375
who said to me,

1496
01:42:07.458 --> 01:42:11.916
that he had lost his faith.

1497
01:42:12.000 --> 01:42:16.250
So I said “What you’re talking about
is a very serious business,

1498
01:42:16.333 --> 01:42:22.875
because it’s not just faith that you’ve
lost, but a way of looking at the world.

1499
01:42:22.958 --> 01:42:25.708
A way of looking at the human condition.

1500
01:42:25.791 --> 01:42:28.583
How are you now making sense
of the world

1501
01:42:28.666 --> 01:42:31.416
and of yourself?”

1502
01:42:31.500 --> 01:42:35.500
We need the Christian faith
for ourselves,

1503
01:42:35.583 --> 01:42:40.041
to make sense of our own life,
and also the world, of society.

1504
01:42:40.125 --> 01:42:45.291
Where are we going to start if we don’t
have any moral or spiritual tradition

1505
01:42:45.375 --> 01:42:46.875
that is acknowledged?

1506
01:42:46.958 --> 01:42:52.041
If we have no vantage point,

1507
01:42:52.125 --> 01:42:55.625
then we will not be able
to make the right decisions.

1508
01:42:55.708 --> 01:43:01.375
We have reflected on the emergence of
Judeo-Christian values on European soil,

1509
01:43:01.458 --> 01:43:04.458
and the influence this has had
on Western civilization,

1510
01:43:04.541 --> 01:43:08.333
in the Americas,
and wherever it is found.

1511
01:43:08.416 --> 01:43:13.166
We have heard the gentle voices of those
who wish to leave homosexual practices,

1512
01:43:13.250 --> 01:43:17.125
for their own purposes,
and for the sake of conscience.

1513
01:43:17.208 --> 01:43:20.458
We have listened to
those who support their journey,

1514
01:43:20.541 --> 01:43:25.541
and fight for their rights and freedoms
to live life as they see fit.

1515
01:43:25.625 --> 01:43:28.666
Finally then, it is time to say
that those ideologies

1516
01:43:28.750 --> 01:43:30.916
that force men, women and children,

1517
01:43:31.000 --> 01:43:36.416
to accept a view against their will,
are damaging and hurtful.

1518
01:43:36.500 --> 01:43:39.000
It is time to respect difference,

1519
01:43:39.083 --> 01:43:40.833
and to accommodate individuals,

1520
01:43:40.916 --> 01:43:44.083
who for reasons of conscience,
belief, and free will,

1521
01:43:44.166 --> 01:43:48.458
choose not to embrace dogmas
of sexuality that will surely pass.

1522
01:43:51.541 --> 01:43:56.000
VOICES OF THE SILENCED

1523
01:43:56.583 --> 01:43:58.166
CORE ISSUES TRUST

1524
01:43:58.250 --> 01:44:02.875
CHALLENGING GENDER CONFUSION,
UPHOLDING SCIENCE AND CONSCIENCE

1525
01:44:02.958 --> 01:44:05.208
REMEMBERING DR JOSEPH NICOLOSI
1947 - 2017

1526
01:44:05.291 --> 01:44:07.583
COLLEAGUE, FRIEND, INSPIRATION